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PASCAL-MXM & P-SERIES REFRESH

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6 minutes ago, Prema said:

MSI 1060:

 

 

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MSI_1060.jpg
 

 

 

No SLI connector? Well, isn't that special. If we've got to settle for single GPU, they need a 1080 on the same PCB for it to be an attractive option. 1060 is fine for a little gamer-boy laptop with a compromised cooling system, but that's not good enough for something substantial like an upgrader looking to take his almost new Batman or Phoenix system to the next level. Seems like they are trying extra hard to block upgrades and force new system sales. That really blows.

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MSI in recent days only uses SLI connector on systems also designed for SLI. The card above is used in the non-SLI systems.

I don't know if they offer 1060 in any of their SLI systems...some of our MSI brothers here should know better than me.

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imageproxy.php?img=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160817%2F2ca38d3155ec27ee824d26c92135842b.jpg&key=ebd895ee40c860c6ddda40e565b7300b9cee11252e555c7e10effa351bbb72c9

I don't know it is a vapor chamber, just praying it is. But they went to a spring bar and straight screws with more heat poor coverage, it seems...

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Until the OEMs (Clevo and others) can get closer to achieving aerospace precision, I think a spaghetti labyrinth made this way is going to be a frequent hit or miss proposition. The last thing a customer that paid big bucks for an expensive product should have to deal with is wide variances in quality that affect fit and functionality. With some luck you might have success tweaking a deformed setup like this, but that is going to be hit or miss and could make matters worse. The slightest amount of variance in fit can have a large adverse impact on thermal management. The thought process has merit, but so far the execution always seems to leave something to be desired.

I definitely agree, but want you to also see the difference of our heatsink and the 750dm2

9abf367d390f02391f657d15246b92c5.jpg91206dad7239e5c59db94b48c333fda4.jpg

Which looks designed better?

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4 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

I would urge you to stay away from any machine with a heat sink designed similar to my P750ZM.  It is a popular trend, but the design is unintelligent and ineffective. It does OK for a system run at stock clocks. If you plan to do any CPU overclocking, it will be an Achilles Heel.  It makes the machine more of a pain in the ass to work on as well. If you need to repaste the CPU or GPU, you're automatically doing both. It's stupid to have to disturb both if only one needs attention.

 

My advice: Spend the $175 on the better engineering and you will be far better off in the long run. Thermal management is probably the most important area to avoid compromise and this design represents a popular compromise that looks more impressive in photographs than in does in application.

 

Thank you sir @Mr. Fox 

as a broke engineer, i must agree stretching the already stretched wallet is better in the long run for the sake of keeping the components cool and healthy. The only thing that itch me is the fact that P870DM-2 can't do sli 1080 so why bother having it more expensive. However, if in the end i will pull the trigger on it, i hope @Prema guru will enlighten us by revealing that we can buy the "grid", another 1080 and fit it in P870DM-2 , or if DM-3 will have option for single 1080. because some people can't spend 4000$ in 1 shot. 2.5K now and 1.2-1.5K later is more reasonable :D .  I will wait until that further notice of SLI-ability of 1080 in DM-2 or single option 1080 for DM-3.  I think resellers are abusing price of P870DM-3 for this 1080 capability as of now. Now what i wonder more is whether this 1080 in laptop can overclock past that 2.1GHz desktop barrier :D 

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@Brian - FYI - Seems like there is some kind of glitch going on with the forum. I am seeing errors in quotes in numerous places in this thread. Several of my forum posts and private messages keep dumping content after clicking submit. I've tried PM'ing @sirana about a half dozen times this morning and submit erases most of the content of the PMs.

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I would urge you to stay away from any machine with a heat sink designed similar to my P750ZM.  It is a popular trend, but the design is unintelligent and ineffective. It does OK for a system run at stock clocks. If you plan to do any CPU overclocking, it will be an Achilles Heel.  It makes the machine more of a pain in the ass to work on as well. If you need to repaste the CPU or GPU, you're automatically doing both. It's stupid to have to disturb both if only one needs attention.

 

My advice: Spend the $175 on the better engineering and you will be far better off in the long run. Thermal management is probably the most important area to avoid compromise and this design represents a popular compromise that looks more impressive in photographs than in does in application.

 

Thank you sir @Mr. Fox 

as a broke engineer, i must agree stretching the already stretched wallet is better in the long run for the sake of keeping the components cool and healthy. The only thing that itch me is the fact that P870DM-2 can't do sli 1080 so why bother having it more expensive. However, if in the end i will pull the trigger on it, i hope @Prema guru will enlighten us by revealing that we can buy the "grid", another 1080 and fit it in P870DM-2 , or if DM-3 will have option for single 1080. because some people can't spend 4000$ in 1 shot. 2.5K now and 1.2-1.5K later is more reasonable [emoji3] .  I will wait until that further notice of SLI-ability of 1080 in DM-2 or single option 1080 for DM-3.  I think resellers are abusing price of P870DM-3 for this 1080 capability as of now. Now what i wonder more is whether this 1080 in laptop can overclock past that 2.1GHz desktop barrier [emoji3] 

The dm3 and dm2 price difference is $1200. The 1080 costs about $1050. The grid also had a cost unknown and not compared to the other heatsink. As such, doesn't seem as an abuse, tbh.

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48 minutes ago, ajc9988 said:

The dm3 and dm2 price difference is $1200. The 1080 costs about $1050. The grid also had a cost unknown and not compared to the other heatsink. As such, doesn't seem as an abuse, tbh.

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Yeah, I agree. The DM3 has what looks like some awesome new tech that has to have some extra costs associated with it. I don't think it is an abuse either. Spending $4K for a beast SLI machine is not out of the ordinary. The highest performance comes with a high price tag. The only thing that might be looked at as abuse is the lack of options for stuff that doesn't work any more leaving tons of people with worthless dead-end machines that haven't even been fully broken in yet, LOL. Whether it is or isn't, it certain doesn't feel very good.

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If you guys are getting forum errors, please report them in the moderator forum if you're a moderator or T|I forum feedback if you are a user. Be specific as possible with examples so we can track down the issue and resolve it. 

 

Thanks 

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While on lunch break today I enquired a UK clevo seller. about a dm3 as barebones as possible, no mem, no hdd or os, just 1080 sli and cpu after a while he ca me back couldn't stop laughing at the price £3900 an insane price God knows how much they intend to charge for full price. I suspect it was a go away and stop bothering me price.

When i enquired about perma bios they know about it and are not intrested:(

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It's almost funny that NVIDIA now finally officially supports overclocking on mobile GPUs that can't even hold their stock clocks unless used in Alaska in Winter...

They must be really scared of heat if a vBIOS is told to throttle at 46c...

 

 

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2 hours ago, Prema said:

It's almost funny that NVIDIA now finally officially supports overclocking on mobile GPUs that can't even hold their stock clocks unless used in Alaska in Winter...

They must be really scared of heat if a vBIOS is told to throttle at 46c...

 

 

If only the industry would settle on a similar standard on shape like mxm did and create an aftermarket of both heatsinks and cards like desktops! That is where the industry needs to move to! Standard MB and component placement, heatsink, and videocard. Maybe have extended space on certain laptop models advertised as such for oversized cards like you would have to pick a case for a desktop to hold the oversized video cards. A man can dream of a day for just buying a "case" (chassis), display, mb, cpu (desktop chips for all, allowing for low power desktop chips (which now have tdp matching mobile sockets, or full bore chips), gpu, heatsink, ram, etc. And building it from scratch, upgrading as desired, buying his preferred manufacturer on each component. This is where modular laptops need to go! Then laptop manufacturers would also need to compete on quality of each component and you would have high end, highly customized machines! :-)

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2 hours ago, Prema said:

 

 

It's almost funny that NVIDIA now finally officially supports overclocking on mobile GPUs that can't even hold their stock clocks unless used in Alaska in Winter...

 

They must be really scared of heat if a vBIOS is told to throttle at 46c...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My vbios throttle at 50c or above by -13mhz, this ois on a desktop custom PCB 1080 AMP ZOTAC. I think this is done intentionally to prevent instability and possible chip degradation since the new GPUs are more fragile due to the smaller fabrication process.

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1 hour ago, ajc9988 said:

If only the industry would settle on a similar standard on shape like mxm did and create an aftermarket of both heatsinks and cards like desktops! That is where the industry needs to move to! Standard MB and component placement, heatsink, and videocard. Maybe have extended space on certain laptop models advertised as such for oversized cards like you would have to pick a case for a desktop to hold the oversized video cards. A man can dream of a day for just buying a "case" (chassis), display, mb, cpu (desktop chips for all, allowing for low power desktop chips (which now have tdp matching mobile sockets, or full bore chips), gpu, heatsink, ram, etc. And building it from scratch, upgrading as desired, buying his preferred manufacturer on each component. This is where modular laptops need to go! Then laptop manufacturers would also need to compete on quality of each component and you would have high end, highly customized machines! :-)

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While its nice that laptops are getting gpu hardware as close to desktop stuff as ever, I overall am not liking this change in laptop cards starting with the 980 notebook. Upgrading seems dead. While standard mxm cards were overpriced, the cost of these custom mxm cards is just nuts. Prices for the 980 notebook cards were over $1200, and I don't expect the 1080 to be any less than that. We used to have Dell, MSI, and Clevo all making standard and mostly interchangeable cards. Now Clevo and MSI are incompatible and Dell seems to have disappeared.

 

I'd rather have slightly weaker, but much cheaper and upgradable GPUs than slightly stronger and much more expensive and unupgradable GPUs. Right now they still use the old standard mxm slot so some laptops can probably use new cards with modified laptop cases and heatsinks, but I expect that to be dropped next gen fully killing gpu upgrades.

 

It would be great is MSI and Clevo got together and aggreed on a mobile GPU standard that they would try to continue for several generations.

Edited by Khenglish
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If only the industry would settle on a similar standard on shape like mxm did and create an aftermarket of both heatsinks and cards like desktops! That is where the industry needs to move to! Standard MB and component placement, heatsink, and videocard. Maybe have extended space on certain laptop models advertised as such for oversized cards like you would have to pick a case for a desktop to hold the oversized video cards. A man can dream of a day for just buying a "case" (chassis), display, mb, cpu (desktop chips for all, allowing for low power desktop chips (which now have tdp matching mobile sockets, or full bore chips), gpu, heatsink, ram, etc. And building it from scratch, upgrading as desired, buying his preferred manufacturer on each component. This is where modular laptops need to go! Then laptop manufacturers would also need to compete on quality of each component and you would have high end, highly customized machines! :-)

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While its nice that laptops are getting gpu hardware as close to desktop stuff as ever, I overall am not liking this change in laptop cards starting with the 980 notebook. Upgrading seems dead. While standard mxm cards were overpriced, the cost of these custom mxm cards is just nuts. Prices for the 980 notebook cards were over $1200, and I don't expect the 1080 to be any less than that. We used to have Dell, MSI, and Clevo all making standard and mostly interchangeable cards. Now Clevo and MSI are incompatible and Dell seems to have disappeared.

 

I'd rather have slightly weaker, but much cheaper and upgradable GPUs than slightly stronger and much more expensive and unupgradable GPUs. Right now they still use the old standard mxm slot so some laptops can probably use new cards with modified laptop cases and heatsinks, but I expect that to be dropped next gen fully killing gpu upgrades.

 

It would be great is MSI and Clevo got together and aggreed on a mobile GPU standard that they would try to continue for several generations.

I agree. I just wish they not only got together on the cards, but on everything to create even better modularity and ability for aftermarket parts. Specifically, a standard board like itx or atx, etc, meaning heatsinks that are similar in size our shape, but where manufacturers could tweak designs or components to fit in the same area, giving choice for upgrades in cooling and also cooling fans. Video cards are part of it, but keeping your case and upgrading MB and components would be awesome, our being able to transfer your current system to a better chassis because of universal size/shape for how it fits. You make boards for slim chassis and mark compatibility and sizes. The point is, process won't drop on components, even for upgradeable units, with so little competition! They see the laptop as a unit and want consumers to as well. I want the components to be viewed as the unit and fully upgradeable.

But I do agree, let's get video card upgrade back first...

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2 hours ago, Prema said:

 

 

It's almost funny that NVIDIA now finally officially supports overclocking on mobile GPUs that can't even hold their stock clocks unless used in Alaska in Winter...

 

They must be really scared of heat if a vBIOS is told to throttle at 46c...

 

It seems like NVIDIA doesn't know what NVIDIA supports any more. They're all about gimmicks, that's for sure. It seems an awful lot like they just make up stupid crap and flip their stories around as they go along so it can fit whatever their marketing strategy happens to be at any given point in time. That they would even market something with such high clock speeds that throttles at 47°C seems pathetic and it raises questions in my mind about their integrity.

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If only the industry would settle on a similar standard on shape like mxm did and create an aftermarket of both heatsinks and cards like desktops! That is where the industry needs to move to! Standard MB and component placement, heatsink, and videocard. Maybe have extended space on certain laptop models advertised as such for oversized cards like you would have to pick a case for a desktop to hold the oversized video cards. A man can dream of a day for just buying a "case" (chassis), display, mb, cpu (desktop chips for all, allowing for low power desktop chips (which now have tdp matching mobile sockets, or full bore chips), gpu, heatsink, ram, etc. And building it from scratch, upgrading as desired, buying his preferred manufacturer on each component. This is where modular laptops need to go! Then laptop manufacturers would also need to compete on quality of each component and you would have high end, highly customized machines! :-) Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

  While its nice that laptops are getting gpu hardware as close to desktop stuff as ever, I overall am not liking this change in laptop cards starting with the 980 notebook. Upgrading seems dead. While standard mxm cards were overpriced, the cost of these custom mxm cards is just nuts. Prices for the 980 notebook cards were over $1200, and I don't expect the 1080 to be any less than that. We used to have Dell, MSI, and Clevo all making standard and mostly interchangeable cards. Now Clevo and MSI are incompatible and Dell seems to have disappeared.

 

I'd rather have slightly weaker, but much cheaper and upgradable GPUs than slightly stronger and much more expensive and unupgradable GPUs. Right now they still use the old standard mxm slot so some laptops can probably use new cards with modified laptop cases and heatsinks, but I expect that to be dropped next gen fully killing gpu upgrades.

 

It would be great is MSI and Clevo got together and aggreed on a mobile GPU standard that they would try to continue for several generations.

I agree. I just wish they not only got together on the cards, but on everything to create even better modularity and ability for aftermarket parts. Specifically, a standard board like itx or atx, etc, meaning heatsinks that are similar in size our shape, but where manufacturers could tweak designs or components to fit in the same area, giving choice for upgrades in cooling and also cooling fans. Video cards are part of it, but keeping your case and upgrading MB and components would be awesome, our being able to transfer your current system to a better chassis because of universal size/shape for how it fits. You make boards for slim chassis and mark compatibility and sizes. The point is, process won't drop on components, even for upgradeable units, with so little competition! They see the laptop as a unit and want consumers to as well. I want the components to be viewed as the unit and fully upgradeable.

But I do agree, let's get video card upgrade back first...

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Not that I not want to have back the MXM Standards, but did MXM not evolve over time? From 2.1 to 3.0b and now with 3.0© or similar? And with that came different shapes.

I understand that everyone is creating their own "standards" now, but at least it seems that Clevo want to establish the new form as forthcoming standard for the next generations. Or did I miss something?

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1 hour ago, str8_an94baller said:

 

 

My vbios throttle at 50c or above by -13mhz, this ois on a desktop custom PCB 1080 AMP ZOTAC. I think this is done intentionally to prevent instability and possible chip degradation since the new GPUs are more fragile due to the smaller fabrication process.

 

We have higher ambient temps than 46c in Summer...I remember it reaching up to 52c, so yeah.

 

40 minutes ago, CaerCadarn said:

Not that I not want to have back the MXM Standards, but did MXM not evolve over time? From 2.1 to 3.0b and now with 3.0© or similar? And with that came different shapes.

I understand that everyone is creating their own "standards" now, but at least it seems that Clevo want to establish the new form as forthcoming standard for the next generations. Or did I miss something?

 

Current standard (since 2012) is MXM III (revision 3.1, which added PCIe 3.0).

Type 'b' (and 'a') simply describe the physical dimensions, hence the new cards are MXM III (3.1) but not 'b' (apart from the MSI 1060).

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1 hour ago, Prema said:

 

Current standard (since 2012) is MXM III (revision 3.1, which added PCIe 3.0).

Type 'b' (and 'a') simply describe the physical dimensions, hence the new cards are MXM III (3.1) but not 'b' (apart from the MSI 1060).

 

The original MXM III from 2009 can still run a modern 980m. Only pci-e 2.0, but still that's 7 years of upgrades. For old laptops like the m15x the rest of the laptop was long obsolete before it ran out of GPU upgrade options.

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It's funny how clevo ships the 1080 (with GDDR5x) with the stronger memory controller phase layout (160 amps lol) over the 1070 which has (the more power hungry) GDDR5.

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41 minutes ago, Meaker said:

It's funny how clevo ships the 1080 (with GDDR5x) with the stronger memory controller phase layout (160 amps lol) over the 1070 which has (the more power hungry) GDDR5.

 

That's not memory. Those are 2 core phases. The core on the 1080 Clevo cards is 4+2. I don't get why the 2 phases have a cut down FET count on the 1070 while the 4 are unchanged. Seems like the thing to do would be to cut both, or cut neither.

 

The memory is the two phases with the 2 smaller .24mH inductors.

 

 

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I need to get my hands on one and have a good look.

Edited by Meaker

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