D2ultima

Firstly, congratumalationzsauce to @Khenglish on successfully modding a 980 onto a 980M. Especially in a P150EM. But this thread has taught me quite a few things. And all of them boil down to "nVidia sucks". But I'm glad you have this victory =D. The bad thing? Now I want a couple of 980s on 980M PCBs with improved mosfets and power delivery systems in my system. DAMMIT KHENGLISH

@HTWingNut The evolved form of the comic from way back when is above xD

So, in light of nVidia's new broken cards, and the way that every single card goes out of stock minutes after getting back "in stock" online all around the world (even $900+ CAD per card? Insta-sold, according to a friend who has been trying to find one to bench it for at least two weeks now), I mentioned to a friend Luna that if the universe keeps shoving money up nVidia's behind they'll probably never fix Pascal with a revision like they did with Fermi. She proceeded to draw this, which I think you all will absolutely enjoy, especially @Mr. Fox hehe

You're almost right. Clevo is the manufacturer, but not an OEM exactly. They're an ODM. Kind of like Compal, who sells to (or sold to) Alienware. You usually don't hear about ODMs that aren't their own OEM (ASUS and MSI are their own OEM, though MSI sells "whitebooks" as an ODM which can be rebranded freely; if you ever see say... a GT72 that doesn't have the MSI branding or colour schemes etc, that'd be the situation) but Clevo sells to SO MANY around the world that it's more efficient to simply use the Clevo names. Especially since, being an ODM, most people who sell them don't say that they're a clevo. Sager is technically a reseller, but it's better to think of them as a rebrander. They take the Clevo barebones and rebrand them. XMG/mySN do the same thing, but they also do it for gigabyte notebooks too, so their whole lineup isn't from Clevo. So... Sager, Mythlogic, Eurocom, XMG, Metabox, Venom Computing, Aftershock PC, scan UK, Origin PC, iBuyPower, CyberpowerPC, AVADirect, Falcon Northwest, etc are all "rebranders" as far as laptops go. The reason the distinction is there is because "resellers" like XoticPC and LPC-Digital and Reflex Notebooks exist, which directly re-sell (literally) rebranded models. In this case, the ones I called all re-sell Sager. The machines come from Sager and they are simply more of a middleman. In Sager's case, it's often easier to have a reseller deal with you with regards to warranty and the like as people have generally discovered over the years. Machines from Mythlogic or Pro-Star Computing, for example, don't push nearly enough bulk to warrant a reseller, or branches in other countries. It refers to unlocked system BIOS and video BIOS for stability and personal system control. It's always desirable to have one, unless you REALLY don't care about your system as long as it turns on and doesn't crash randomly in games. Anything beyond such basic functionality will pretty much require a Prema mod. The mods this time around are not (yet?) publicly available. They might not be for the current gen of systems.

Eurocom has Prema mods. Reflex notebooks are a Sager middleman for Canada. Mythlogic is in the US but ships to and has canadian warranties.

I see.

I see. I don't even know if that's going to be something MSI specifically offers. And even so, it comes with a 4K screen only, so that's another turnoff. As far as I can tell, the 1080M model to which Prema spoke about where he claimed he hated non-standard configurations for no reason (and I agree), has a 6820HK. It keeps that 6820HK very cool at stock, but that's just at stock. When a review comes out, we'll see more. But I highly doubt it is capable of cooling a 6700K. As for MSI BIOSes, they aren't so locked down like Clevos are, but for unlocking them there is a user on the MSI official forums that MSI allows called Svet who will unlock MSI BIOSes. It is a donation-given unlock however, so unlike Prema who generally releases his mods for free at some point, Svet will never do so. And as far as I know he does not do custom vBIOSes either. Even then I don't know what unlocking the BIOS actually gives. Overclocking and undervolting is possible with their stock BIOSes, however maybe TDP control and the like isn't? I can't say; I haven't checked them out. This is where my knowledge from simply gathering information fails me if I don't have machines to check myself. I want ASUS to have nobody buy from them until they stop being so anti-consumer and improve their post-sale service. I'm not even sorry anymore. I keep seeing people running them and Razer down like there is no tomorrow, but they're honestly such anti-consumer companies with such restrictive warranties it makes me cringe. I'd rather EVGA and Gigabyte make some decent attempts and MSI stop being so far up their own ass with their GT72's success that they actually do something for the consumer. I also wish Clevo would fix their software issues real quick, as that's the only main glaring problem they have right now, but oh well. If only the socketed machines cost about the same as the soldered ones, our arguements would be much better. If a soldered machine with a 3 year warranty costs less than a socketed machine with a 1 year warranty, then an average joe isn't going to care about spending more because of the laptop environment that tech websites have built up.

As far as I can see in the picture Mr. Fox just posted, that is a joined heatsink. Even if the cores aren't joined, that's still joined. Do you have some proof of this Mr. Fox? From what I saw from Mr. Najsman's testing (though he hasn't said what it is specifically, even though Prema did) he had a 6820HK in it. The posts are now redacted so I can't specifically go and re-check. But as far as I can see, no 6700K in anybody but a Clevo. Also, as far as MSI SLI goes, the GT83 is likely to do it. And more likely to do then hybrid power crap we hate that's in the GT80

From what I gathered from Prema's post, there's no reference MXM B design anymore. So yes MXM exists, but it's basically an ASUS scenario where the PCB is custom for the specific laptop it is made for. You'll NEVER upgrade to a later gen card or even be able to use an earlier gen card because the laptops are designed for X card. It makes MXM only useful for replace-ability, not upgrade-ability. That's better than BGA, but honestly not by much. When your laptop goes obsolete it'll stay obsolete, GPU-changing or not. This is making me consider even more to simply go to desktop for the next machine I get... whenever that is. I already have more than enough issues with warranties and replacement parts right now.

We had 95% NTSC Gamut 15.6" AUO panels before. Here's a glossy one. Here's a matte one. 94% NTSC is not anything new. It IS new for 17", and it is new for 120Hz, however I'm taking that with a grain of salt that it is 95% matte NTSC 120Hz. Laptops usually do not get such good panels; I'll have to wait and see for that one... though I'll be happy if it is true. And the viewing angles aren't absolute garbage... that'd help too. I agree with this. I've never used my reader. I wanted to for online passwords, but it never worked properly. Why not just not install the drivers, and possibly disable it in device manager? I don't have the drivers for mine and I don't get any errors or any "please installs"... no W10 means it won't try to forcibly install the drivers for me. I also had an old 2005 laptop that had a fingerprint reader that kept connecting/disconnecting because the reader was broken, and a good old disable in device manager fixed that for good, even across reboots.

They did. They discarded it. My P370SM3 unfortunately has one of those crappy buttonless clickpads. Look at this abomination. Thankfully they discarded them since the SM-A series =D. Stupidly enough, the P375SM and P377SM didn't have the P370SM & P370SM3's clickpads. T_T.

To be quite frank, I do see your point with the 4K screen on the Clevos, but I'd rather install it myself over getting one of those AWs. Optimus is a no-no for me for when I want to sit down and game. Or stream (whenever I do that again).

If they'd make good IPS panels for mobile in terms of response time, it'd be fine. IPS desktop panels are 8-bit with often 100% (or close to) adobe RGB; minimum 72% NTSC, with 4ms response on 144Hz panels. Laptops have 25ms response times for 6-bit panels at 60Hz. The 4K AUO is 8-bit which I know is why Prema wants it but laptop panels on the whole should improve. If we're getting good TN 120Hz panels while they fix up the IPS panels, great. But I swear any 25ms 6-bit 120Hz IPS panel I see I'm personally punching through for thinking that that's acceptable to sell to people >__>

I already told you that SLI + optimus is impossible. Even if you could connect it somehow you'd need a MUX switch to go from iGPU-only to dGPU-only and it would require a reboot.

So even turning it on doesn't allow hardware acceleration using it?

1 - You seem to be looking for Optimus. I don't understand why you would be considering that with such a machine, but either way, Optimus does not support multi-GPU. Even if you were on a mobile chipset. Either iGPU only or dGPU only with SLI. The only machines ever to offer the switchable capabilities were the Alienwares M18x R1, M18x R2 and AW18. 2 - Even if you DID have a MUX switch with such capability to go between dGPU and iGPU only, you would require a reboot every single time you switched the GPU, as Windows cannot support changing of the primary graphics adapter without crashing, because Microsoft sucks. 3 - The clevo machines, MUX switch or no, have the iGPU completely disabled. It's a thing I wish they would change; I would rather the iGPU be on (not attached to anything) allowing for hardware acceleration on it to take place (quicksync based recorders or encoders, browser acceleration using iGPU, etc), or at most have a MUX switch since Skylake iGPUs should be capable of using higher refresh rates. But until they do you're out of luck.

ULMB either has to be supported by the panel by default (which would likely require a hardware button on the laptop to enable/disable it) or it needs to be forced using a tool that some enthusiasts have created. Unfortunately while trying to find ULMB for myself, I found out that each panel needs to be added to its database to turn it on, and laptop panels were not on its database. So I somehow doubt we'll get ULMB. But 120Hz is more than a good enough announcement as far as panels go, especially if low response times.

Well... oh well. You have your own other connections I suppose. If only I could get some things like that to play around with here =D. Instead I'm stuck fighting a few dead pixels that seems to have appeared on both my monitors. >___>.

Well I checked your review benches and it seems that card is a bit better by stock than the overclocked 980 in 3DM11 graphics performance. Which I would assume to be a good thing, if at stock, since a max OC'd 980 is around Titan X performance give or take. But does it overclock? Assuming that's one that Eurocom sent you to check out for them.

That picture confuses me. The GPU-Z says 1080M, though Clevo's own says 1080, and the 980 is still in your overlay. What do you mean by basic as well? I know you don't consider stock as "basic" xD.

That's reference Titan X performance, if that really shows up. It's not a GTX 1080 obviously, but 1080M it'd work. AMD doesn't even have a Polaris GPU capable of that performance; they have nothing to compete in the mobile sector.

My logic is extended from something I heard a long time before. "When they game for <namehere> I didn't say anything, because I didn't know <namehere>. When they came for the <people here> I didn't say anything because I wasn't <people here>. When they came for etc etc" and it goes on. At the end it says "when they came for me, nobody was left to say anything". It's like that. If they get a slow-creep on all devices, and make soldered chips sell like wildfire in desktops from pre-built machines, and everything is BGA-only, then when they make the switch to mainstream high end chips and enthusiast boards/chips, who's going to say anything? They'd have pushed AMD into nothingness, they'd be the kings of performance, and what they say goes. Simple. Then when desktop gamers want to say that's bullshit, then hey what's going to happen? Everyone else will (rightfully, including myself) rip into them saying how they never lifted a finger before it bothered them, when it happened with all laptops and all lower end OEM tier machines and all mITX AIO machines like the Alienware Alpha, etc. So now they're not allowed to complain, because it's the same principle. But if they push for the whole market right now? Soldered CPU announcements, soldered GPU announcements, buy board with CPU & GPU, no multi-GPU support at all, etc? YEAH. Bring it. See how everybody get vex at everything, and we could ride the wave and push for laptops to have sockets returned and to get rid of soldered-only as the only choice. THEN we might see something. That's why I hoped it'd be earlier than later. Because the later it is, the more other ventures get time to settle, and the less likely are they to be overturned.

I had hoped it'd happen sooner. I want it to happen as soon as possible. Because the quicker it happens, the easier it is for the market to shrug it off. Laptops being soldered? Nobody really cares. Desktops being soldered? Big backlash. Let them get rid of the thought of soldered anything being the only choice from the get-go.

This is the entire point you'd think... but people still lap it up. The number of people who'll ridicule you for not having a top end current-gen system or just toss stronger GPUs at games until they run well is astounding. Even when my system was top of the line I complained about optimization when it was necessary... nobody else seems to care. And yes, people don't really care for the PC versions. And if they say they do, the games are often extremely unoptimized and buggy still, and have update timelines that mirror the consoles. Because when it comes to AAA titles, consoles are their bread and butter. Even The Witcher 3 had to have console considerations made. PC gaming is often more hassle than fun lately. Then there's the majority of people that 1-click optimize and run the game and leave everything default like a console player. Like ok. If that's what you want, sure, but then don't join discussions about the games and whatnot if 45fps on "medium" with your $550 GPU that's barely a year old is acceptable. This is the other thing. Those indie games that don't have the best graphics are sometimes the absolute most fun and enjoyable games to play, period. Binding of Isaac Afterbirth is one such game. Between the original and the second game, I have about 650 hours played. The How To Survive games are good, cheap fun as well. They even have local co-op so my sister and I play together sometimes. Solid 394 hours in Terraria as well. It's somewhat sad that the best fun I've had in gaming in a long time comes from indie titles with unassuming graphics for the most part. I've all but given up with most AAA titles. I'm tired of being disappointed with them. I agree. I tell people: Multi-GPU once you've got the strongest card available already AND it's not enough, and be wary that it's just not going to work very often for new releases anymore. It's now a labour of love, and you better really love it. As for titles like GTA V, they're still unoptimized as all hell. The CPU draw, the RAM requirements, the vRAM usage, the GPU usage... compared to the visuals produced, they're way WAY too high. It's not even an argue-able point, even. Lots of people like to say how people only gripe when they've got yesterday's hardware and blah blah blah etc... but if you're able to provide a certain experience on such weak hardware like the PS4 and Xbox 1, then with a system much stronger, we should see much better experiences. But it just never worked like that. And the performance went up and down with each update too. It was silly. The CPU usage it had was also silly. Just adding PC-specific features isn't enough. It seems to be what devs think is enough, looking at Black Ops 3 and GTA V and all those games. But those features don't mean too much if the game runs like crap and is buggy like hell. I don't get why they don't just make the games for PC and port to the consoles. It will be easier all around, and maybe some optimization might ACTUALLY reach us. I hope it makes people just move to PC. They're making the consoles more and more PC-like. Especially with this stupid "upgrade" cycle they're considering. Maybe then we'll actually get some PC market love.

It's not only that, but game engines are moving to tech that's dependent on the last frame's data. There's not enough bandwidth between the cards. Forcing two-way SLI on Unreal Engine 4, for example, 1440p and above generally gives NEGATIVE scaling unless you're using PCI/e 3.0 x16/x16 configurations for the cards. And at 4K that might not even be enough, honestly. It's the reason for the high bandwidth bridge (even though what they should have done was use the XDMA-style design like AMD did since Hawaii; they had enough time... that launched before Maxwell, far less Pascal). There aren't enough PCI/e lanes for beyond 2-way SLI, and with all the hype they touted about DX12 and multi-GPU, they had to figure out some way to make it happen. Even AMD is being stupid and showing CrossfireX benches to beat the 1080... like that'll work in 70% of the games these days. They don't even have an equivalent to nVidia Profile Inspector to force compatibility bits and profiles on games, further limiting their already limited multi-GPU profile pool. I think it's really stupid, honestly. The tech doesn't even look all that amazing all things considered; no need to have it be inter-frame dependent. And another thing they need to fix is the ridiculous CPU usage on many titles. For the last year and a half games have basically been cannibalizing CPU usage like it's going to run out in 5 minutes. Especially stupid when half of them run at 60fps on those weaksauce consoles whose CPUs barely match up to an i3.