squinks

Any single-slot Thunderbolt2 enclosure/adapter such as a AKiTiO Thunder2 or Sonnet SEL provide a x4 2.0 PCIe BUS to service the single slot.

Any Thunderbolt enclosures/adapters such as the Sonnet III-D or Netstor NA211TB with 2 or more slots require an additional PCIe-to-PCIe bridge chip to split the x4 2.0 PCIe BUS (Thunderbolt) to additional buses. That additional bridge adds configuration complexity and it seems the Apple firmware can hang on bootup, presumably in a infinite loop attempting to configure those bridges but failing to do so.

I recall @squinks having the same issue with his Sonnet III-D that was resolved upon using a Sonnet SEL.

+1

The III-D issues arose during my SLI project but not with a single GPU. Sounds like it is a Maxwell issue. Side note: @Tech Inferno Fan, I noticed the peformance board says III-D for my SLI listing. It was 2 SELs.

Anyway, I hope everyone here is making progress. I've been lost in PS4 land. K I'm out : )

What will I likely need to use setup 1.3 for? I actually have it already, but I'm waiting on a part for my main machine that I have the E GPU for, so I haven't used it yet. Just trying to get any information that helps, while I keep searching

Well, without a 2013 or newer MBP, you will not be able to just install windows and expect things to work. The hardware won't support it. Your only alternative on a 2012 rMBP is eGPU 1.3 - From what I understand, this will allow you to create a boot option that allows you to configure the PCIe interfaces. I takes some know how and that's why I'm glad I never had to mess with any of that.

You want my real advice? Sell your MBP and get a newer model. It will save you from what I can only predict will be serious headaches. Unless you enjoy that sort of thing. I like to hack, shoot I even persisted until I solved and created the world's first eGPU SLI solution which took months of revisions to do, that was a massive pain but I had the right hardware. Furthermore, why would you want an eGPU @10Gbps anyway. That's a really crappy bottleneck that limits you to nothing more than a GTX 760. Anyway, just my 2 cents. Best of luck!

- - - Updated - - -

Yes the higher the load the less stable and eventually crash. Also I'm only referring to Windows 8.1 didn't figure out how to get it working on OSX. Also no longer have the setup.

I see. Yeah I'm the same, sold everything. I have yet to see OSX gaming with an eGPU

I am powering it with the corsair RM550 PSU

You could use the internal power of the sonnet echo iii-d but it wont be stable (lack of power watts) as I've tried that since no one responded to my earlier question.

Yeah, I can imagine a drop in stability with only the III-D's PSU. Does it freeze? What happens exactly. And it is only during max load?

On a 2012 MBP, you'll most likely have to use nando's eGPU software. I never used it and don't know much about it. Search the forums to find others who have done this. Your Akitio chassis is also another factor that I don't know anything about. Hopefully there's a way to make it all work.

- - - Updated - - -

@squinks, @ReaverM1

I see you guys have GT750M. I also have the rMBP with GT750 and was really excited about eGPU-ing it. However the inability to use rMBPs LCS might halt my efforts (I actually do not own an LCD). There is absolutely no chance to use internal LCD? No workarounds, no hot-swaps, no special Window boot schemes / builds?

Unfortunately, no. It's not possible. At least, not one has found a way yet. When Windows sees the dGPU, it completely disables the iGPU, thus, no Optimus.

- - - Updated - - -

@squinks I have a mid 2014 Macbook Pro 15" 2.8GHz (4.0Ghz Turbo Boost) 16GB Ram GT 750M 1TB PCI SSD + (External GPU) GTX 780 Ti SC + Sonnet Thunderbolt 2 III-D Chassis. Im getting the same +/- scores as you with and without external PSU (Corsair RM 550). So my question is do I really need lug around my 550 Watt PSU when clearly its not a factor in stability or benchmarks? Will or can I damage the GTX 780 Ti by not using the external PSU?

How are you powering the eGPU without a PSU?

Nice! Do you use a fixed 90 degree riser card PCIe x8 to x16?

I just used standard risers. A tight fit when the cards are upright but options were limited.

Nice work, But that physics score :|

Are you gonna get a 15" or stick with this?

I have a 15" MBP but not an Iris-only. The project was merely to prove what was thought to be impossible. The 13" MBP is what it is. Most importantly, doors have been opened for the future of eGPU.

Your setup should work. I have the SEL + 780 Ti. For PnP, you will need a standard bootcamp install of Windows 8.1

See this post (The setup is for the III-D but pretend it's the SEL):

http://forum.techinferno.com/diy-e-gpu-projects/6689-%5Bguide%5D-2013-15-macbook-pro-gtx780ti%4016gbps-tb2-sonnet-echo-express-iii-d-win8.html#post91182

And if you're curious, I just posted a first ever, SLI setup:

http://forum.techinferno.com/diy-e-gpu-projects/7326-sli-success-2x-780ti-2x-sonnet-sel-macbook-pro-%4032gbps-tb2-2x-16gbps.html#post100318

For OSX, yes, you would see need modified kext files. See the OSX86 community for those answers

7-Jan-2015 Tech Inferno Fan>> originally it was thought that this configuration would provide 32Gbps of performance. Unfortunately that is not the case due to the Thunderbolt chip being hosted off a x4 2.0 bus, limiting performance to 16Gbps as noted.



I'm excited to unveil the first ever (to my knowledge) eGPU SLI configuration. 2x 780 Ti's + 2x Sonnet SEL's running on a 2013 MacBook Pro. This was thought to be impossible, in fact Nando and I were certain it was a lost cause, but I was determined to prove otherwise. Thousands of dollars and months later, it happened.

There are a number of factors that went into making this possible. The combination of hardware is the most important. The other key ingredients include software and a particular boot process that until discovered almost put an end to the whole project. As much as I would enjoy keeping this information to myself, I will happily disclose everything I know for any other lunatics out there that want to create the ultimate eGPU solution.


Configuration:

2013 13" MacBook Pro (15" preferred) *Iris-only graphics required!
2x EVGA 780 Ti (Any matching EVGA GTX cards should work)
2x Sonnet SEL
Corsair RM450 PSU w/2x 8pin to 8+6pin
Windows 8.1
External display (Optimus is not an option with SLI)
*Secret step for SLI (revealed below)
*Secret boot process (revealed below)
 

–

Performance Results –

3DMark 11
SLI Graphics score: 22095 link
Single 780Ti score: 12576

3DMark - Fire Strike
SLI Graphics score: 19395 link
Single 780Ti score: 10410

3DMark06
*Older benchmarks would not run with both GPUs

Games
Almost every game experienced CPU bottleneck on the 13" MBP
The above benchmarks provided static rendering and thus realistic SLI results

*Please do not request benchmarks on specific games, I do not
have a 15" Iris-only MBP to give you a legitimate GPU-centric result,
however, just like the benchmarks, I'm confident the results would be impressive


CUDA-Z Bandwidth (TB Device 1 and 2)

Host to Device: ~1250 MiB/s
Device to Host: ~1360 MiB/s
Device to Device: ~135 GiB/s



– The Secret Sauce –

1. HyperSLI 1.0 (installation is simple, adds a boot option)
2. Boot process:
- Shutdown (not a restart)
- Unplug TB cables
- Wait 10 seconds
- Plug in TB cable #1
- Wait 10 seconds
- Boot Mac and hold alt
- Wait 5-10 seconds
- Plug in TB cable #2
- Select Windows and choose HyperSLI boot option
- Should work! Open Nvidia Control Panel and enable SLI


– Limitations –

- CPU. 15" w/maximum quad-core CPU will provide the best SLI performance
- Games that require more CPU will experience capped FPS quickly
- GPUs in SLI crunch massive amounts of data @32Gbps and low-spec CPUs will not keep up
- MBPs w/Iris-only graphics is required. MBP w/discrete GPU + 2 eGPUs will not boot or will result in a Code 12
- External display required
- Optimus is not an option. Believe me, I tried

You are right. It is better to use the SEL. The SE II is already too expensive (> $ 700 in Europe) and it becomes worse if you count the external PSU and internal DC converter. But it would be nice if we could find a small (Min-ITX) case to mount all the components. I want a clutter free solution so I can use it in my living room.

You could absolutely use an ITX case to fit everything in. I thought of doing something like that myself.

Yes if everything fits this would be great! Can somebody confirm this? If this works I might buy the updated version of the Sonnet Echo Express SEII with a PCIe x16 slot :-)

I would go SEL. I have proven that SEL has Optimus out of the box on Iris-only MBPs. The SE II and III-D have a PLX chip (PCIe switching for circuit boards with more than one slot) that restricts the ability to use your internal display without hassle.

@Tech Inferno Fan Indeed. Intel is crazy protective about this stuff.

@Tech Inferno Fan Interesting. Yes, someone would have to test it. So that leads me to ask, what is the advantage then over a Sonnet SEL?

@Tech Inferno Fan

Just confirmed the III-D does indeed have a PLX chip. Not easy to peak under but at the right angle, there it is clear as day, "PLX". The SEL does not as you would imagine. Both the III-D and SEL have the appropriate slot for the ASUS ThunderboltEX II. Only question is what that header is for. Is it for power? Why is a PLX chip necessary if used with the SEL board? Either way, my guess is Sonnet could not sell you a PCIe board legally and even if they did, it would not be cheap.

@Tech Inferno Fan Wow. That's a very interesting part there. Not sure what I'm look for on the III-D board. The proprietary ASUS connector is a bit worrisome but if it works.. and if a PCIe board was obtainable from Sonnet, it would make for an interesting project. Any takers out there? : )

@Tech Inferno Fan @Relentless By the way, the TB port closest to the magsafe thing, completely not true. I updated the steps which are essentially: shutdown, plug or re-plug eGPU, boot into Windows.. Optimus enabled!

I reviewed @scubahalo's 17.3" Asus G750-JW + Sonnet Echo Express SE II + R9 280X + Win8.1 UEFI undocumented PnP eGPU implementation.

The PCI dumps show his Echo Express SE II incorporates the same PLX PEX 8613 12-lane 3-Port PCIe Switch (10B5:8613) as used in your Echo Express III-D. That switch required when splitting off a TB pci-e link across two or more pcie slots. The SE II has two x8 2.0 slots, the III-D has three - one x16 and two x8.

I'm assuming your III-D wasn't PnP because of that switch and so the SE-II would face the same problem. It then makes the most inexpensive Sonnet solution, the Echo Express SEL as the most useful one for eGPU purposes. It's has a single x8 pci-e slot with no intermediate switch. It gives a PnP solution once the x8 slot is extended to x16 using a extender/riser.

@Tech Inferno Fan I think you are absolutely spot on. I've been thinking about these boards lately (although the SE II now ships with an x4, x8, and x16 like the III-D) and I had concluded that the switching or interface delegation on the SE II and III-D thwart easy Optimus activation.

@Relentless has shown there is a way to enable Optimus with additional steps and that's good. However, like you stated, the Sonnet SEL which I'm now using has proven to be both the most affordable and capable chassis. Stay tuned for some updates from my end but I'll just say, for those interested in high-performance solutions and/or Optimus out-of-the-box, the Sonnet SEL is the way to go.

@Dschijn That's the first compact solution I've seen. Very interesting. However, that would only be considered more clean if you can fit everything in the chassis which only this ITX 760 + SE II configuration could accomplish. Otherwise, having more circuit boards, adapters and/or cables lying around vs. a small PSU isn't exactly more clean. Having said that, the idea is good and I'll register that in my list of future options. Thanks!

@squinks @Nando

So I have worked out a repeatable process for getting my Optimus setup to work:

1. Turn off Macbook.

2. Power off Sonnet (I actually pull the power out of the unit). This seems to reset the state of the Sonnet to clean.

3. Turn off power supply to GPU.

4. Power on Sonnet and plug in Thunderbolt cable.

5. Turn on laptop holding ALT/Option to allow OS selection.

6. When MacBook startup chime happens (a couple of seconds after power on) turn on GPU power supply.

7. Choose Windows from the OS selection menu.

This works 3/3 times. I think the key learning is to make sure you turn off/unplug the Sonnet so any memory/state is lost from their board.

Of course, if you want to use an external screen then just turn off the MacBook and make sure the Sonnet and the GPU are powered and it will just work.

Good to know. I've included this information in my newly updated 2013 MacBook Pro Plug and Play - Optimus guide:

http://forum.techinferno.com/diy-e-gpu-projects/6918-updated-2013-13-15-macbook-pro-thunderbolt-2-egpu-plug-play-optimus.html#post94929

This is the updated guide for the 2013 13" and 15" MacBook Pro eGPU configurations regarding Plug and Play and/or Optimus capabilities. Some new discoveries have been made after additional testing with various combinations of MacBooks, Sonnet chassis, and GPUs.

Optimus disclaimer: Optimus consistently reduces performance 10-20% due to bandwidth being partially saturated with video signal. However, it's still insanely awesome. Retina native-resolution gaming is pretty much the best thing ever. For all intensive purposes, it's 4K gaming on your notebook. My 780 Ti running games on Ultra @2560x1600 is an experience I cannot put into words.

Requirements for Thunderbolt 2 plug and play with external display:

- 2013 13" or 15" MacBook Pro w/Iris-only graphics (*with a condition) OR models with discrete graphics (e.g. 750M)

- Sonnet SEL (w/x16 riser), Sonnet SE II, or Sonnet III-D

- Any GPU

- External PSU for 8-pin and/or 6-pin auxiliary power (Corsair RM450 recommended for it's silent feature. Also compact and fully modular)

* 2013 13" or 15" MacBook Pro w/Iris-only graphics may possibly require one hot-plug during windows boot (plug card into PCIe slot when windows logo appears). Check card detection in Device Manager, install Nvidia drivers, plug and play from that point forward.

Requirements for Thunderbolt 2 plug and play and out-of-the-box Optimus internal display support:

- 2013 13" or 15" MacBook Pro w/Iris-only graphics *15" models with discrete graphics do not work

- Sonnet SEL (w/x16 riser) or possibly Sonnet SE II (unconfirmed). *Sonnet III-D does not work

- EVGA GPUs (confirmed) or other internally power-controlled card. MSI is confirmed to not enable Optimus out-of-the-box *See below

- External PSU for 8-pin and/or 6-pin auxiliary power (Corsair RM450 recommended for it's silent feature. Also compact and fully modular)

Follow these steps:

1. Shutdown MacBook (not a restart)

2. Plug or re-plug eGPU into Thunderbolt port

3. Boot into Windows (confirmed with 8.1 only). Optimus should work every time

*If it fails and screen is black, boot with eGPU disconnected, shutdown from Windows menu, reconnect eGPU, try again.

*MSI and likely other manufacturer's cards remain partially powered from auxiliary power (fan always spinning) and will not enable Optimus without these specific steps.

Provided by @Relentless (confirmed with MSI 760 + Sonnet SE II):

1. Shutdown Macbook (not a restart)

2. Power off Sonnet (I actually pull the power out of the unit). This seems to reset the state of the chassis board

3. Switch off power supply to GPU

4. Power on Sonnet and plug in Thunderbolt cable

5. Power on MacBook holding alt/option key to reach OS selection

6. When startup chime is heard, switch on power supply

7. Boot into Windows

Configuration Summary:

Pre 2013 MacBook Pro

- No plug and play

- Figuring out a way to do a Bootcamp w/GPT install could then provide PnP over TB1

2013 15" MacBook Pro with discrete graphcis

- Fully plug and play with external display

- No Optimus

2013 13" and 15" MacBook Pro with Iris-only graphics

- Plug and play after driver installation *See above requirement

- Optimus capable with Sonnet SEL or Sonnet SE II and proper boot steps

Note:

50% performance drop was occasionally seen when Iris was deactivated on Iris-only MacBooks (may have been resolved with latest Nvidia drivers). This was only experienced when not booting properly and Optimus was not enabled. When Iris graphics and eGPU are both active, graphics performance nearly matches 15" w/quad-core (*See below). External display required for max FPS.

Bioshock Infinite Benchmark (external display):

15": 108FPS

13": 106FPS

- - - - -

13" w/Optimus: 86FPS 19% performance drop

Thanks for your input. If I use the SEL than I would also need some kind of a case for the GPU. An Echo SE II already has a small case that would fit some short versions of the GTX 760.

Yes, I also own MSI's ITX 760 that fits in the SE II (barely). That's the only higher-end ITX GTX card you can get. Thing is, what about when 8 Series come out this year and there aren't any newer GPUs released that fit in the SE II. Then you wouldn't be able to upgrade and keep it enclosed. Having said that, I totally understand the goal to have an enclosed GPU setup. I own the III-D with a 780 Ti. I get it. I was going to do the SE II and ITX 760 for my wife but decided to return everything for two 780 Ti's. Each with an SEL. I've made it look pretty good without it being enclosed. For those who absolutely want an enclosed eGPU, I don't blame you. That was my original approach too.

So if I want to build an eGPU for my 13" Retina MacBook Pro (Late 2013) I would need:

1) Sonnet Echo Express SE II with a PCIe 16x slot

2) MSI GTX 760 Gaming ITX (N760 2GD5/OC ITX) or ASUS GTX 760 Mini (GTX760-DCMOC-2GD5)

3) Dell 220W DA-2 PSU or something similar. I'm looking for an aesthetic solution so no desktop PSU.

4) Something to connect the PSU to the aux input of the GPU?

4) Apple Thunderbolt cable

5) Windows 8 with EFI

Did I miss something? So no special drivers are required anymore?

Thanks!

First off, that DELL PSU will not work for GPU 8-pin auxiliary power. The pin sockets are the wrong pattern. True GPU 8-pin on the top side goes round, round, square, square. That DELL 220 goes square, round, round, square. Other than that, your listed setup will work. If you want a full-size GPU though, you might as well save $100, get the SEL and use a riser.

@Relentless Hey, your thoughts on the Sonnet and PSU power state helped me solve my Optimus issues! If you shutdown the MacBook (Iris only) instead of restarting, then plug/re-plug TB cable, then power on, Optimus works every time! Heck yeah

*Update: EVGA cards work. MSI cards require more steps. Sonnet III-D does not work, only Sonnet SEL and possibly Sonnet SE II allow for easy Optimus activation. Full guide here:

http://forum.techinferno.com/diy-e-gpu-projects/6918-updated-2013-13-15-macbook-pro-thunderbolt-2-egpu-plug-play-optimus.html

@Relentless Yes, the RM450 never turns on either. Pretty awesome. Only a motherboard and desktop components would draw enough power to require the fan. I have not been able to get a reliable boot process for Optimus. I kind of don't care due to the significant reduction in performance but if you could give me steps that work "every" time. I'd like to know it. I can get both Iris and eGPU detected at times but Optimus hasn't been activating lately, just Iris running if I launch a game. It's so inconsistent I've kinda given up.

A question regarding your replacement PCIe board. Do all SE II's ship with two x8's? How come your replacement had an x16 in it. Did they accidentally ship you a III-D board or something? I'm probably going to go with the SE II now but would like to have an x16 as well.

Hi @squinks

My math is by typing:

2614MB/s in Gbit/s into Google as it can be used as a calculator.

It is a very tight fit with the power cable and I am a bit worried about putting force on the card. Too bad Corsair don't sell these cables separately and one with a 'low profile' 90degree bend would be very nice.

With regard to turning it on for Optimus, I believe the sequence actually might be:

1. Turn on laptop with Sonnet ON and PSU OFF.

2. Hold ALT from Laptop poweron until Windows selection screen.

3. Unplug Sonnet.

4. Power on PSU.

5. Plug in Sonnet.

6. Start Windows.

Process to be confirmed once I get a repeatable process. I think it's the Sonnet that is doing a second layer of funky process (after the MacBook BIOS) as the graphics card fan does not always start at the same frequency suggesting another variable there.

Cheers

I wonder if that process would consistenly enable Optimus on my setup. The only thing that has worked so far is hot plugging the card at the moment the Windows logo appears.

As far as the math goes. I see what you did. Adding the bandwidth both directions. That really puts it into an alternate perspective since you can't interpret it as a hard drive, usually only doing one thing at a time, read or write. If CUDA-Z was only doing host to device or vice versa, perhaps the bandwidth would be around 20Gbps in one direction. @Tech Inferno Fan, can you weigh in on this. Perhaps Sonnet isn't doing false advertising after all?

I'm testing some Optimus stuff on my wife's 13" rMBP w/SEL and GTX 760. I'm testing your version and hot-plugging as well. There has to be an easier way and I won't resort to cutting wires.

Well done @Relentless. What crazy timing! I just received my Sonnet SEL and the same MSI GTX 760 today for my wife's setup. Identical bandwidth on all these new Sonnet enclosures. The 760 benchmarks 50-60% of the 780 Ti, so for the price, that's pretty great. The III-D, SE II, and SEL all perform the same regardless of x4, x8, or x16 slots. Probably since they all run over an x4 interface no matter the electrical capacity of the slot. The calculation you made based on your CUDA-Z score is interesting since that's what the III-D gets but @Tech Inferno Fan and I both assumed that meant 16Gbps. Perhaps it really is 20Gbps and we did the data math wrong.

Anyway, congrats on a great setup. I'm even considering replacing my III-D with an SEL for my setup and putting my wife's 760 in a SE II as well since you've proven it's concealed. My 780 Ti would be hanging out of a smaller chassis no matter what so the SEL would suffice I suppose. It's all under the desk anyway. The III-D's internal PSU makes a whining noise that I think is messing with my ears! lol

Well good job man. Nice simple solution that will likely be a common choice for many others. Just a side note, you will experience 10-20% greater performance on an external display. Optimus is awesome though, nothing beats gaming on your internal display, not to mention a Retina display.