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[POLL] 2016 and Beyond: What do YOU want?


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P7xxZM series but with DDR4 and skylake and two M.2 PCIe x4 and more complex BIOS.

And in general more simple way GPU upgrade (VBIOS on official site).

then just go get urself a P7xxDM series, theyre about to hit the shelves end of this month / beginning of sept ;)

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  • 4 weeks later...

I am late to this thread, but my list must go on!

  • Good PCH cooling solution. I once decided to play Black Ops 2 while rendering a video in Sony Vegas 13 and watch a livestream. My PCH hit 105c even though my CPU never passed 85c.
  • Socketed CPUs forever, even if desktop CPUs must be used.
  • Socketed GPUs forever of course. Upgrade-ability is beautiful.
  • 120Hz 8-bit colour 1080p and 1440p panels (especially for the models in the class of the P7xxZM, P7xxDM and P870DM). I feel like any machine beyond my P370SM3 is somewhat of a downgrade if I can't have 120Hz again.
  • 3D vision to return. I'm also sad that to upgrade from 780Ms to 980Ms I'd have to lose 3D.
  • Larger single power bricks. I'm hoping we can at least get to 400W or 500W single brick systems on the quality that the current 330W bricks have.
  • Unlimited motherboard power allowance. Just like how our systems can use two 330W bricks currently, if we attach two single 400W or 500W bricks (building off the above point) we should be able to use it all. GPUs and CPUs are quite power hungry these days!
  • Better heatsinks. A lot of the heatsinks seem to come somewhat warped, or otherwise have poor contact, and even though the fans and cooling DESIGN is very good, the heatsinks all vary in effectiveness and lapping is often very beneficial. If they could all be perfect like how most of the old Alienwares (M17x, M18x) were, we'd be far better off.
  • Better cooling design. Machines like the P1xxSM-A and P37xSM-A are great, but they could be better as the P7xxZM models showed.
  • Better keyboards; with the quality of the D900 series at least (I've not used the P7xxZM keyboards; I cannot tell).
  • iGPU functionality (for Quicksync acceleration) on the desktop CPU machines (but not allowing the iGPU access to any displays). The desktop chipsets should allow this functionality.
  • Mux switches are always great; dGPU only mode for all machines should be possible.
  • Full overclockability support, and good BIOS options for end-users.
  • IF POSSIBLE, a bypass for the HQ mobile chips on the models using them to allow them to draw more power than their 47W/45W limits beyond 2.5 minutes. It's currently impossible for most machines, but I think you should be able to design the BIOS to override the limits of the CPU?
  • Good sized power bricks for all the machines. The P6xxSx and P6xxRx machines are nice at 180W but a 220W or 230W possibility would suit them very well.
  • Good QA for the machines' basic designs. I've seen some early P650Sx users complain that their HDMI ports refused to work due to the chassis' design, and modifying the case fixed the issue. Later machines shipped did not have this issue, but it shouldn't have happened with the first models.
  • Support for high memory speeds and some memory overvolting.
  • Brighter and nicer backlight control for keyboards (more than just 3 areas), and on models where not only the keyboard is backlit, ability to turn on/off backlights for each part that uses it (for example, lightbar + no keyboard lights + no red backlights on P375SM should be possible).
  • Nice colour gamuts for screens! 72% NTSC should be minimum; there's no reason to get less.
  • IPS panels with better response times, especially if they're the only option for a machine (like the P770ZM-G). Also 6-bit IPS panels are a joke.
  • Better audio! MSI's Dynaudio is fantastic and I think Clevos can get something at least nearly as good.
  • Better built in mics. My D900F mic was one of the best mics I've ever used; better than all mics on all headsets I've ever owned and even better than my current Blue Snowball by a mile. My P370SM3's mic however is not nearly as good, no matter how I set it up.
  • Let Prema do your BIOS
  • Taller rubber feet on the laptop. My D900F was fantastic; but my P370SM3 gains a great cooling boost simply by folding up 4 blocks of 2-ply toilet paper and putting one of those under each of the four feet of the laptop. It'd be great if at least all the performance laptops like the P7xxDM and P870DM would have taller feet to prevent the need for such a simple modification.
  • UEFI fast boot support WITHOUT Secure Boot, as well as legacy boot support
  • Always high vRAM count GPUs (at least as an option one can pay a little more for) even for P6xxRx type models.
  • Please pressure nVidia to enable SLI on/off without reboots in their drivers. We've done it with driver regedits, we've done it by using desktop drivers, it causes no problems with the machines, nVidia knows that it needs changing, but they're not doing it.
  • Support old BIOSes/systems for at least a couple generations for OS updates with hotkey software etc.
  • Thunderbolt 3 as well as mini DP/HDMI/USB 3(.1) ports
  • All external displays wired to the dGPU in laptops which have MUX switches and can use Optimus mode.

That list was longer than I thought. I feel like I'm asking for too much T_T.

Seriously let Prema do your BIOS

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very nice list D2, glad u saw this thread, better late than never ;)

as for pch cooling, even at 105c it wasnt in the danger zone. those pch chips have higher tjmax values than cpus and gpus, iirc somwhere in the region of ~125c. but yeah, still worrisome to see such values under load...

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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very nice list D2, glad u saw this thread, better late than never ;)

as for pch cooling, even at 105c it wasnt in the danger zone. those pch chips have higher tjmax values than cpus and gpus, iirc somwhere in the region of ~125c. but yeah, still worrisome to see such values under load...

The reason I mentioned it is because my D900F had a thermal pad on the PCH and incorporated it into the CPU heatsink, and to see the HM/EM/SM/SM-A models avoid it was... why?

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  • 2 weeks later...

THIS :D >>>17.3" 4K/8K 120Hz:

News&Event?News Release?Japan Display Inc.

EDIT:

Clevo R&D has product meetings for 2016-17, so if you have anything to add to this thread do it now!

Few points that came up:

- Should we expand use of MXM desktop GPUs?

- Should we use MXM 3.0b with Mobile BGA CPUs?

- Should we launch 13" super monster?

- Should we make 18.4 model?

- How critical is storage? Shall we implement more of M.2 drives and drop 2.5" altogether?

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- Should we expand use of MXM desktop GPUs?
Maybe

Bang:buck = good? Quadro/FirePro? Professional, mobile power base has deep pockets and the world's only SLI Quadro offer does have its perks. Especially when there's no competition ...

- Should we use MXM 3.0b with Mobile onboard CPUs?
Come again?

As in 'dual cpu'? Hell yes!!! Or is this an alternative to bga; swap cpu board instead of cpu itself? If so, then simple socket interface would suffice, no?

- Should we launch 13" super monster?
Yes

Coding beast on-the-go or portable gaming station (if coupled with external monitor or 1080p mini-projector, respectively).

- Should we make 18.4 model?
Yes

With so little competition this is a no-brainer; movie-galore and plenty of room for properly cooled power. New first-time Clevo customers, too.

- How critical is storage? Shall we implement more of M.2 drives and drop 2.5" altogether?
Depends

If M.2 at 1.5TB or more, then yes; ditch 2.5". Only, do provide a cooling solution then; ambient temperature is too high, so throttle takes place when under load. Simple heatsink and fan would do wonders. Maybe tap into S.M.A.R.T. for temperature-report -> fan control?

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...

Come again?

As in 'dual cpu'? Hell yes!!! Or is this an alternative to bga; swap cpu board instead of cpu itself? If so, then simple socket interface would suffice...

They want to know if instead of having a BGA - BGA combination for their mobile CPU systems (P6), to have a MXM - BGA combo instead.

(I guess the answer should also make clear that we want the desktop LGA CPU series to stay as well and only get rid of BGA GPU in the P6 and replace it with MXM)

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They want to know if instead of having a BGA - BGA combination for their mobile CPU systems (P6), to have a MXM - BGA combo instead.

(Not sure if this also implies not having a desktop cpu series)

Well, if Kaby lake is the same socket and chipset as Skylake, then you wouldn't need a new socket laptop to replace the P7X0DM until 2017 with cannonlake. This means, so long as mxm is an option, it is upgradeable and future resistant, leaving only the bga needing upgraded. I, of course, always would say mxm-bga over bga-bga. But the only laptop I may but in the next couple years would be the P870DM or a P570WM replacement. So I'm not exactly the target demographic...

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THIS :D >>>17.3" 4K/8K 120Hz:

News&Event?News Release?Japan Display Inc.

EDIT:

Clevo R&D has product meetings for 2016-17, so if you have anything to add to this thread do it now!

Few points that came up:

- Should we expand use of MXM desktop GPUs?

- Should we use MXM 3.0b with Mobile BGA CPUs?

- Should we launch 13" super monster?

- Should we make 18.4 model?

- How critical is storage? Shall we implement more of M.2 drives and drop 2.5" altogether?

Sorry for the double post, I'm on my phone.

Expand use of mxm desktop gpu - YES!!! Including sli options.

Yes to mxm-bga (some like thinner and ability to upgrade)

13" super monster -I never buy less than 17", so I can't give a good answer.

18.4" model - YES as an alienware alternative, including sli desktop mxm. Also, this may be a candidate for a socket 2011 or an amd Zen processor (if and only if Zen is cheaper at price point and competitive benchmarks, which is unknown until next summer, unless Clevo can get a sample to decide whether it is worth developing).

Storage - I like the idea of all m.2 with a fan or cooling in compartment. It also would free up space for more fin thickness, a fan in the area, oversized mxm cards, any needs hbm2 cooling would have, etc. The draw back is no hdd can be used. Some users like to move the hard drive physically to the new machine. This is impossible under this scenario. Also, price for m.2 pcie x4 nvme ssd is still high, although that will drop over that time. The m.2 satas cost the same as 2.5 ssds, so it's a wash (unless you need the drive space like 1tb or 2tb drives have in 2.5). If it meant more cooling/better mxm cards, definitely do 4 m.2 drives for a trade off!!! :-)

Also, getting an 8k as soon as possible in that time would be awesome (at minimum in the 15", 17" (including sli model), and 18"sli models)! I saw Japan display released that. Cannot wait. Also eDP 1.3 (or any newer version out in that time). Are almost all of those panels going to be 40 or 50 pin? Anyways, until a better leap is made in eGPU for sli (not the Nvidia nvlink still requiring an extra cord for the additional speed) I don't see much pickup for it.

But, developing a 660W ac pack would be nice for the sli mxm models![emoji83] that way you just have one unit (acceptable to have two power cords from the wall going to a single block, then one to the laptop). That's top of my head on what was asked. Also, two models of 18", one with performance desktop (socket 115x for i5/i7/e3) and the other with extreme desktop (socket 2011 vX for i7-E/e5) processors would cover all bases (with the later primarily if multi thread improves under directx 12).

Also, if they could examine the use of k-core copper plates for the heatsink with media vias, that would rock! It is graphene core inside copper outside, and the vias is a break in the graphene to allow the heat to better enter into the high heat transfer graphene plane. I don't believe they have vertical graphene sheets to use as the core yet, but that would be awesome. Also, tighter QA tolerances on the heatsink plates for better contact (i know the p870dm heatsink looked better than my ZM before I started)!!! I can send info on the company that makes K-core of need be. I just want to maximize cooling for desktop 14/16nm gpus that are coming...

And, as always, an unlocked Prema bios stock on all sli machines, or at least Clevo support for it!!!

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Few points that came up:

- Should we expand use of MXM desktop GPUs?

Yes. Flexibility is good, for consumer and the downstream Clevo partners who assemble/sell/resell the product.

- Should we use MXM 3.0b with Mobile BGA CPUs?
YES. While it wouldn't be high on my list (I want both C/GPU upgradeable) I think it would once again open up better options for customers. And actually might act as an entryway to the equivalent of the xxxDMs

- Should we launch 13" super monster?
If done right. There is a market for it but for a 'super monster' it might be limited so weighing the R&D against sales... Though if you included a TB3 on it you might get a whole other market if eGPUs become more prevalent.

- Should we make 18.4 model?
Yes. Though I would also weight that against LCD availability. Like the 13" there is a market - but how big? the question might be whether or not the 870 graduates to this level if you do it.

- How critical is storage? Shall we implement more of M.2 drives and drop 2.5" altogether?
Maaaybe? Storage is important for me. My current laptop has dual 960gb SSDs I expect that M.2 will grow big enough, but until then the need for at least one 2.5" bay will be needed. Though once m.2's get to ~1tb I definitely could see it in a slim small model... like the 13"

Quite frankly the modularity of the Clevo models in both GPU and CPU is what brought me to buy them. When my elder children leave the house in the next few years and I get an office back if Clevo is still making models like they are today I will buy the equivalent of an 870 instead of building a desktop. The upgradability along with (at least some) portability is good. The quality and capability of the models is outstanding and if all of this is maintained should enable Clevo to eat a significant chunk of the market, particularly if steps are made downstream for models to be more accessible. For instance the MUX that is coming out is great and opens up options. Doing BGA CPUs with MXM GPUs would allow flexibility and perhaps not seem as daunting as also replacing CPUs to some people - thus being a gateway to the higher level systems. Getting to 4k panels in the 17" models will be nice as will that capability if it can be found in the 18.4"

Most of my other thoughts revolve more around the availability of things. NA always seems to only have 4k or FHD.. Not Clevo's fault. But I do wish that NA distributors would wake up (Eurocom probably excepted in this case) and offer things like 2k or 3k screens. While we may be moving away from that there will still be other options and they don't seem to like it. I guess the one thing for Clevo on that would be to make the Service Manuals more accessible - at least then you can look up compatible screens. I find it irritating when no one in NA will even tell you what a screen IS - fortunately I could find a SM to answer it myself, but a few of them lost any chance of my business ever in this lifetime.

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- Should we expand use of MXM desktop GPUs?

Yes! I would like to see more desktop class MXM GPUs (Pascal) etc. Especially if we can have them in SLI in systems like the P870DM

- Should we use MXM 3.0b with Mobile BGA CPUs?

I think the current lineup is fine. BGA CPU with BGA GPUs, LGA CPUs with MXM GPUs

- Should we launch 13" super monster?

If by super monster you mean a 13" with a BGA quad core unlocked cpu with a faster gpu such as a 980M then yes! I feel an LGA set-up would make it thick and heavy and at that point it'd be better go get the 15" model which would probably have better cooling. A BGA 980(desktop) in a 13" would be impressive.

- Should we make 18.4 model?

Honestly I think the current 17.3" models are fine. The 18.4" alienwares were nice but I feel like 17.3" is the sweet spot for an sli monster and 15" is the sweet spot for a single gpu monster.

- How critical is storage? Shall we implement more of M.2 drives and drop 2.5" altogether?

Put as many M.2 slots possible but on the higher end models such as the P870DM/P775DM/P770DM/P750DM make sure there is still at least one 2.5" drive slot.

Also I would like to see a bigger single PSU, maybe a 480W psu that would be similar in size to the current 330w adapter. If it needs an active cooling solution, a small fan is fine as long as it isn't really loud.

I would like to see a metal design on the chassis instead of plastic, although I do like the rubberized material.

Keep the touchpad with buttons and a fingerprint reader like the way they are now. Many notebooks are getting rid of physical buttons and that sucks.

Some better speakers with a better sub for the 17.3" models would be nice. The software helps nicely but higher quality speakers with more amplification will make a greater difference.

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THIS :D >>>17.3" 4K/8K 120Hz:

News&Event?News Release?Japan Display Inc.

EDIT:

Clevo R&D has product meetings for 2016-17, so if you have anything to add to this thread do it now!

Few points that came up:

- Should we expand use of MXM desktop GPUs?

- Should we use MXM 3.0b with Mobile BGA CPUs?

- Should we launch 13" super monster?

- Should we make 18.4 model?

- How critical is storage? Shall we implement more of M.2 drives and drop 2.5" altogether?

LOL YES! i read that article yesterday and thought about implementation into laptops right away :D

as for the questions: yes on all points, although i think it would be enough to supply one desktop gpu monster in each gen. if u expand that niche too much, then its more likely to threaten the standard 3.0 B market and we dont want that to happen...just make sure NOT to artificially cripple the regular flagship mobile gpus like the 980M by installing less power phases than the board provides space for!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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LOL YES! i read that article yesterday and thought about implementation into laptops right away :D

as for the questions: yes on all points, although i think it would be enough to supply one desktop gpu monster in each gen. if u expand that niche too much, then its more likely to threaten the standard 3.0 B market and we dont want that to happen...just make sure NOT to artificially cripple the regular flagship mobile gpus like the 980M by installing less power phases than the board provides space for!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Help create mxm 3.0C standard (and get faster bandwidth too and from the card, like pcie 4... But @jaybee83 is right about needing it standard!

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Few points that came up:

- Should we expand use of MXM desktop GPUs?

- Should we use MXM 3.0b with Mobile BGA CPUs?

- Should we launch 13" super monster?

- Should we make 18.4 model?

- How critical is storage? Shall we implement more of M.2 drives and drop 2.5" altogether?

I believe I touched on some of this in my post, but I'll gladly re-answer some

Yes, we should. In fact, for the higher end models like the P7xxZM models, if a desktop MXM GPU line is available, I don't see why mobile chips even need to be considered (at least for single GPU). They bring little to the table that the desktop-designed chips don't (maybe only battery boost?), and as long as the MXM desktop chips can downclock like mobile chips can (my 780M gets as low as 135MHz core, 162MHz memory, and uses pretty low power at idle) I see no real reason to stray away from the desktop MXM formats in new models. BUT, this should only be expanded once Pascal comes out. The GTX 970 is broken by design and the GTX 960 is for all intents and purposes inferior to a 970M with a good vBIOS on it. The 980 is a good idea, but when Pascal comes out is when we should be considering it. And the prices shouldn't be exorbitant either... it's something that needs to be mentioned. There is no reason that fitting an un-binned $500 desktop GPU onto an MXM board format should bump its price to near $1000. Even the current mobile chips, Performance Per Dollar is extremely low, and they don't even come bundled with their full cooling systems (just a heatsink) as the fan is part of the machine it's going into.

Yes, BGA shouldn't be used unless it's absolutely necessary for a form factor, and I don't believe that it is for these form factors. Though I'd like if you could fight intel down to bring back sockets on their mobile chips. BGA is no good for a consumer, no matter how you spin it. Upgrade-ability and modularity of components is the way to go.

I don't know what a super monster is, but do it. I don't think there are many 13" powerhouses around... though the P640Rx is in a nice spot as well. Also keep the W230SS/SD/RD/etc type machines; they're great too.

Go ahead with the 18.4" model IF it helps you improve on something or add something to the system. Like an ODD, or more fleshed out cooling, etc. If the only difference is screen size over what you can do in a 17" model, then there'd be little point. But I think an 18" model can definitely prove useful.

I think at least one 2.5" HDD slot is useful; cheap storage is often necessary. But as long as M.2 drive controllers heating up won't harass anything else in the system, feel free to do something like 4 x M.2 + 1 x 2.5" 9mm SATA III drive. I think the space should be present; however I don't know if chipset lanes are present. Storage is useful indeed, however VERY few people I've ever seen want pure storage space and would rather take two 2TB HDDs + mSATA/M.2 SSDs over users who would just fill up on SSD storage.

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I wanted to add, maybe have nvlink sli available on machines asap. My prior comment on eGPU was talking of the obvious bottleneck and sli relating to them only. Nvlink and a good desktop mxm card would still be nice for Pascal in an sli machine...

Edit: also supporting AMD radeon's version of this as well (if Greenland or arctic islands show promise)...

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What are other fundamental design flaws (like the PCH not being cooled properly) which they have to improve on?

I remember complaints on the speaker quality/signal shielding on the zm for some owners... Still thinking of other issues...

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What are other fundamental design flaws (like the PCH not being cooled properly) which they have to improve on?

- Backwards/forwards compatibility for GPUs (like the legacy alienwares had)

- Reduce as much electrical noise over audio as possible (for analog headsets etc)

- Good mics; like the D900F used

- Both eDP and LVDS connectors on the motherboards that are designed to hold both for better LCD choice

- SD card slot having a flap, to prevent dust etc from getting in when not in use for long periods of time

- no clickpads like on the P370SM3, they really suck

I can't think of any else right now.

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thinner bezels! thinking about that 13" monster machine, how about cramming a 14" screen into a 13" body? even better: 17" screen into 15" body! THAT would be my absolute dream machine with exclusively m.2 ssd storage desktop cpu, powerful gpu and all the saved space filled up to the brink with heatpipe-based copper :D

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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