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Sigh..... :calm:

By the way.... Haswell i7-4800MQ????

Yes, note below the table says

NOTE: Haswell results are comparative data from another system. You cannot install a Haswell CPU in a 2570P.

The result there highlighting how much more efficient the Ivy Bridge CPUs are. An anomoly I've opened a new thread about: http://forum.techinferno.com/throttlestop-realtemp-discussion/6958-haswell-step-backwards-ivy-bridge-i-have-some-shocking-tdp-results.html#post95181

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Contacted a supplier for a custom BGA to PGA 3740QM chip. Seems willing to test a 3740QM with Throttlestop. Should they do x34 or is x27 a better measure?

By the way, thanks Tech Inferno Fan for the info on x2.2 compatibility of the PE4C! I guess I'll be sticking with x1.2opt for a much longer time then.

The GTX 670 minis make a great portable option but I'm really hoping that Maxwell can bring us more powerful, short, 1-slot cards.

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Contacted a supplier for a custom BGA to PGA 3740QM chip. Seems willing to test a 3740QM with Throttlestop. Should they do x34 or is x27 a better measure?

By the way, thanks Tech Inferno Fan for the info on x2.2 compatibility of the PE4C! I guess I'll be sticking with x1.2opt for a much longer time then.

The GTX 670 minis make a great portable option but I'm really hoping that Maxwell can bring us more powerful, short, 1-slot cards.

x27 if the supplier is only of basic cooperation level. If enthusiastic, ask him for the x26 .. highest multi it goes to. Then you can see how it stacks up against the others at INFO: How to choose the most efficient 45W i7-quad. The three i7-3740QM examples so far saw the max multi at x35, x34 and x33.

@jacobsson will be submitting his i7-3740QM's data soon. Then from the 4 samples see if the average moves up, down or stays at x34.

Yeah, Maxwell is looking to deliver massive power-per-watt improvements based on the 28nm GTX750Ti results. The die shrink to 20nm in Q4 2014 meaning it's entirely conceivable for powerful short, 1-slot desktop cards to be released.

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Contacted a supplier for a custom BGA to PGA 3740QM chip. Seems willing to test a 3740QM with Throttlestop. Should they do x34 or is x27 a better measure?

By the way, thanks Tech Inferno Fan for the info on x2.2 compatibility of the PE4C! I guess I'll be sticking with x1.2opt for a much longer time then.

The GTX 670 minis make a great portable option but I'm really hoping that Maxwell can bring us more powerful, short, 1-slot cards.

@badbadbad can you confirm that the BGA to PGA chips work with the 2570p? I am thinking about buying them on ebay from this supplier since they are reported to be new unlike the other processors for sale. But I wanted to be sure it will fit into the G2 socket so I don't waste my money.

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@badbadbad can you confirm that the BGA to PGA chips work with the 2570p? I am thinking about buying them on ebay from this supplier since they are reported to be new unlike the other processors for sale. But I wanted to be sure it will fit into the G2 socket so I don't waste my money.

BGA to PGA?, could someone explain a bit more about this? It sounds very interesting!

EDIT: Oh so BGA is designed for integration, while PGA utilize pins for socket?

So, "BGA to PGA" would be a CPU originally designed for integration (possibly lower power consumption?) that have been converted (added to) to be used in sockets?

If my conclusions are right, does it mean that there are two kinds of socketed CPU's then:

1. PGA

2. BGA to PGA adapted CPU's

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BGA to PGA?, could someone explain a bit more about this? It sounds very interesting!

EDIT: Oh so BGA is designed for integration, while PGA utilize pins for socket?

So, "BGA to PGA" would be a CPU originally designed for integration (possibly lower power consumption?) that have been converted (added to) to be used in sockets?

If my conclusions are right, does it mean that there are two kinds of socketed CPU's then:

1. PGA

2. BGA to PGA adapted CPU's

I am not sure of the details myself, but on this ebay item (Intel Core i7 3740QM SR0UW BGA to PGA Laptop CPU 2 7GHz 3 7GHz 6MB Socket G2 | eBay) they mention it. Apparently they originally have versions of the processor with BGA socket and use a precision machine to add a PCB connection. They claim BGA cpus normally have better power and temperature control ability than PGA cpu. So I would think it works with the 2570p, which has a 988 pin PGA socket, but just wanted to be sure before potentially wasting my money on something that is incompatible with my system.

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I know the 'bootable' message you are referring to. Can you try loading the OS onto your 1TB HDD instead of the SSD and try booting from that instead? Sounds like your SSD is playing funny buggers with the system. Could also try loading Win7 from a USB stick instead of a DVD. Something you may need to do if your 1TB HDD is in an optical bay caddy.

Tanks for your reply. Unfotunatly I still have to receive my HDD caddy so I can't test that yet. Also it seems that the laptop doesn't recognise any bootable USB's anymore. I have two laying around. One with W7 and another one with W8.1, both won't show up as bootable image, which is weird since I managed to update the BIOS from F.31 to F.45 using exactly the sam USB drive as the one where I had W8.1 on installed. So the laptop now also fails to boot from USB....

@Jefferson92 it's maybe the "initializing and estabilishing link" message?

Yeah that is the one. After a few seconds it just says: "BootDevice Not Found. Please install an operating system on your hard disk. Hard Disk - (3F0). The only option I have now is to press F2 to do some system diagnostics. After doing some changes to the BIOS settings this menu doesn't show up anymore. Now the error is shown in a BIOS surrounding (withth same white background).

So recap:

Laptop won't find any harddrive. Tried the original SSD, second SSD from desktop PC and a traditional HDD

Laptop won't boot from USB, because the system doen't recognise it. Was able to update BIOS from USB.

Can boot from DVD, but then the Windows installation freezes at showing the 4 dots/Windows logo withthe message 'starting Windows'.

Does anyone have a clue?

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@hatoblue

Ok I see.

I would think if they made a adaption for these CPU's then they should be compatible with the normal ivy-sockets (988).

Otherwise I don't see the point making these,

It's stated: "Package type: 988pin BGA to PGA" so there should be no problems at all (of course I doesn't hurt to ask).

Would be very awesome to see what your thermal results would be!

Ask him to test in before hand maybe?

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Tanks for your reply. Unfotunatly I still have to receive my HDD caddy so I can't test that yet. Also it seems that the laptop doesn't recognise any bootable USB's anymore. I have two laying around. One with W7 and another one with W8.1, both won't show up as bootable image, which is weird since I managed to update the BIOS from F.31 to F.45 using exactly the sam USB drive as the one where I had W8.1 on installed. So the laptop now also fails to boot from USB....

Yeah that is the one. After a few seconds it just says: "BootDevice Not Found. Please install an operating system on your hard disk. Hard Disk - (3F0). The only option I have now is to press F2 to do some system diagnostics. After doing some changes to the BIOS settings this menu doesn't show up anymore. Now the error is shown in a BIOS surrounding (withth same white background).

So recap:

Laptop won't find any harddrive. Tried the original SSD, second SSD from desktop PC and a traditional HDD

Laptop won't boot from USB, because the system doen't recognise it. Was able to update BIOS from USB.

Can boot from DVD, but then the Windows installation freezes at showing the 4 dots/Windows logo withthe message 'starting Windows'.

Does anyone have a clue?

@Jefferson92 try this: in your Bios you must go to the boot page, and check your SSD as primary boot device.

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@Jefferson92 try this: in your Bios you must go to the boot page, and check your SSD as primary boot device.

Could you specify that?

I think you mean System Configuration --> Boot Options, there check SS as primary boot device.

The only problem is, I don't see my SSD or any SATA connection in this list, only CD-ROM, SD card, Floppy, USB (which doesn't work), etc.

I have set Boot Mode to UEFI Native with OS Boot Manager as first one in the list.

Please advice

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Could you specify that?

I think you mean System Configuration --> Boot Options, there check SS as primary boot device.

The only problem is, I don't see my SSD or any SATA connection in this list, only CD-ROM, SD card, Floppy, USB (which doesn't work), etc.

I have set Boot Mode to UEFI Native with OS Boot Manager as first one in the list.

Please advice

Try legacy mode then.

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BGA to PGA?, could someone explain a bit more about this? It sounds very interesting!

EDIT: Oh so BGA is designed for integration, while PGA utilize pins for socket?

So, "BGA to PGA" would be a CPU originally designed for integration (possibly lower power consumption?) that have been converted (added to) to be used in sockets?

If my conclusions are right, does it mean that there are two kinds of socketed CPU's then:

1. PGA

2. BGA to PGA adapted CPU's

Correct. They used a machine to add Pins to convert a Ball Grid Array (soldered) into a Pin Grid Array (socketted).

The seller claims BGA is better, maybe because the soldered chips have closer contact to the board than the sockets of PGA chips.

We did see slight improvements when the sandwiched copper shims added a little pressure on the chips.

My only concern is if the attached pins are a little longer than the ones on OEM PGA chips. Wouldn't performance decrease with the higher resistance?

I'm just not too sold on the seller's idea that the BGA turned PGA is more heat efficient and performs better. I could be proven wrong after Throttlestop testings.

@hatoblue, we are probably looking at the same vendor but mine's on Aliexpress. The vendor, Daisy, was kind enough to answer some of my questions. Hoping she consents to doing the Throttlestop x27 test. Maybe you can try to PM her to do the x27 test as well?

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Hi, I've just made a test using my 7000rpm fan to establish the relation between temps and clock limit (don't try this at home :) ).

post-18229-14494997775322_thumb.jpg

Looks like even though a very strong air flow bumps up to a cover-less 2570p, the results with the clocks are the same and the temps are still pretty high. So the variables here are mainly "Cpu efficiency" and (probably) poor heatsink capacity.

x32 FAN MODE

1,1459

36,3W

69grad

x33 FAN MODE

XXXX > 32

x34 FAN MODE

XXXX > 32

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Hi, I've just made a test using my 7000rpm fan to establish the relation between temps and clock limit (don't try this at home :) ).

[ATTACH=CONFIG]11838[/ATTACH]

Looks like even though a very strong air flow bumps up to a cover-less 2570p, the results with the clocks are the same and the temps are still pretty high. So the variables here are mainly "Cpu efficiency" and (probably) poor heatsink capacity.

x32 FAN MODE

1,1459

36,3W

69grad

x33 FAN MODE

XXXX > 32

x34 FAN MODE

XXXX > 32

That's certainly an innovative way to keep the 2570P cool :78:

Yep.. it's CPU efficiency that is the issue here. Specifically TDP-throttling that's tied to the individual CPU silicon itself.

The way to max out the performance on Ivy Bridge is to set the iGPU to "max battery" in the control panel, to decrease iGPU TDP requirements, and then use a modified ME FW to increase the BCLK up to 5%. The BCLK increase using the headroom Intel provided with the CPU to max performance within your CPU's TDP limit.

The other way is to just get several i7-3720QM or i7-3740QM CPUs and cherry pick the best from the lot.

Haswell improves things there by allowing a negative offset voltage to be applied to lower TDP. It needs it since it runs quite a bit hotter than Ivy Bridge, with no visible performance improvements other than the iGPU. eGPU users tend to not care much about iGPU performance.

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That's certainly an innovative way to keep the 2570P cool :78:

Yep.. it's CPU efficiency that is the issue here. Specifically TDP-throttling that's tied to the individual CPU silicon itself.

The way to max out the performance on Ivy Bridge is to set the iGPU to "max battery" in the control panel, to decrease iGPU TDP requirements, and then use a modified ME FW to increase the BCLK up to 5%. The BCLK increase using the headroom Intel provided with the CPU to max performance within your CPU's TDP limit.

The other way is to just get several i7-3720QM or i7-3740QM CPUs and cherry pick the best from the lot.

Haswell improves things there by allowing a negative offset voltage to be applied to lower TDP. It needs it since it runs quite a bit hotter than Ivy Bridge, with no visible performance improvements other than the iGPU. eGPU users tend to not care much about iGPU performance.

Yeah, I'll change the CPU soon (I love you "right of withdrawal" :)

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@All, advising that I've moved on from the 2570P to a Haswell 14" Dell Latitude E6440

Main motivation was the larger and more comfortable 900P LCD, mSATA SSD support, SSHD and it cost less than the 2570P was worth. To see what I gained and lost in the move consider reviewing the comparison table in http://forum.techinferno.com/dell-latitude-vostro-precision/6980-14-dell-latitude-e6440-owners-lounge.html#post95555 .

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@Tech Inferno Fan. It's sad that we'll be seeing lesser of you now on this thread. Both you and @jacobsson. You guys really got us sold on to this unit!

But as nothing is ever permanent, thanks for the great job in tweaking and improving our 2570p!

Hope we cross paths again in a future notebook (hopefully a TB3 one). :encouragement:

On a lighter note, I received this message from the seller of the BGA to PGA Processor.

Dear friend,

If you has a high requirement on the CPU.

I suggest you buy a Original PGA CPU.

Original CPU is more stable than BGA TO BGA. (<-Probably meant PGA here)

Thank you

Seems like the Throttlestop experiment picked up unwanted results regarding the performance of BGA to PGA.

The seller did not disclose the results anymore and declared that OEM is still a better choice over custom.

What you guys think? Has anyone else tried a BGA->PGA processor?

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@Tech Inferno Fan. It's sad that we'll be seeing lesser of you now on this thread. Both you and @jacobsson. You guys really got us sold on to this unit!

But as nothing is ever permanent, thanks for the great job in tweaking and improving our 2570p!

Hope we cross paths again in a future notebook (hopefully a TB3 one). :encouragement:

On a lighter note, I received this message from the seller of the BGA to PGA Processor.

Seems like the Throttlestop experiment picked up unwanted results regarding the performance of BGA to PGA.

The seller did not disclose the results anymore and declared that OEM is still a better choice over custom.

What you guys think? Has anyone else tried a BGA->PGA processor?

An absolute pleasure in overseeing the 2570P Owner's Lounge and summarizing others' and my tweaks to get the most out of a 2570P.

As mentioned, I no longer need huge portability so the 12.5->14" upsize is quite OK with me. A Dell E6440 highlighing that an EC-equipped notebook of good size and high quality is still on the market. Good for eGPU users. Prior to going to a 12" form factor way back with the 2510P I was using 14" notebooks. A size I consider as a great balance between portability and usability.

Saying that, an i7-quad upgraded 2570P is still unbeaten in the < 14" size for performance. It's not far off 2013 15" Macbook Pro performance for less then a quarter of the price (ok.. no pci-e SSD, or retina LCD, no TB2 port, but get EC slot, better build, eSATAp and far better warranty!!).

Now anybody lamenting a 2570P using a Ivy Bridge rather than Haswell CPU just needs to see they are missing on a bunch of heat without gaining much if anything : http://forum.techinferno.com/throttlestop-realtemp-discussion/6958-haswell-step-backwards-ivy-bridge-i-have-some-shocking-tdp-results.html#post95181 . Pay careful attention to Mr.Fox's comment in that thread . It's only the Haswell ULT chipset with ULV CPUs (denoted by a U on the end), such as i5-4300U, that run cool and see great battery life. The sacrifice there is performance. They deliver only slightly more than half the performance of a i7-quad upgraded 2570P.

I can't see how a BGA CPU will improve temps much over a PGA one. I'd suggest just grab a PGA i7-3740QM, i7-3720QM or i7-3630QM for best performance in the order; or reverse for best pricing. Then just apply a copper shim and use the fan control utilities for faster heat removal during large, continuous 4-core CPU load over an extended duration.

Oh.. and I found out today that a 14" Dell E6430 has x2 2.0 eGPU electrical capability via two mPCIe slots. It accepts a Ivy Bridge CPU, has a 900P LCD, eSATAp port. Looks may not be to everyone's taste.

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Prior to going to a 12" form factor way back with the 2510P I was using 14" notebooks. A size I consider as a great balance between portability and usability.

Saying that, an i7-quad upgraded 2570P is still unbeaten in the < 14" size for performance.

I must admit that 14" is also my ideal portable setup that is good for gaming.

But since I am looking forward to a 720p upscaled gaming experience in a CV1 Oculus Rift (1440p), the small yet powerful 2570p seems to be the most portable device to suit the job. Not much use for the low 768p screen because of the HMD. @jacobsson 's GTX670 mini eGPU rig even makes things much easier to transport. Hoping for even better hardware with Maxwell.

Now anybody lamenting a 2570P using a Ivy Bridge rather than Haswell CPU just needs to see they are missing on a bunch of heat without gaining much if anything : http://forum.techinferno.com/throttlestop-realtemp-discussion/6958-haswell-step-backwards-ivy-bridge-i-have-some-shocking-tdp-results.html#post95181 . Pay careful attention to Mr.Fox's comment in that thread . It's only the Haswell ULT chipset with ULV CPUs (denoted by a U on the end), such as i5-4300U, that run cool and see great battery life. The sacrifice there is performance. They deliver only slightly more than half the performance of a i7-quad upgraded 2570P.

Actually, I am wishing more for the unlocked multipliers on the 2570p 'coz I'm power hungry. (Will try the BCLK tweak when I get my processor)

I'd suggest just grab a PGA i7-3740QM, i7-3720QM or i7-3630QM for best performance in the order; or reverse for best pricing.

Actually, based on your table, it seems like a 3820QM averages the highest in performance regardless of build quality.

I might be wasting a bit by risking this, but at least I know I didn't hold back in performance (in theory).

Oh.. and I found out today that a 14" Dell E6430 has x2 2.0 eGPU electrical capability via two mPCIe slots. It accepts a Ivy Bridge CPU, has a 900P LCD, eSATAp port. Looks may not be to everyone's taste.

That's great with the PE4C! But two mPCIe slots would probably need a really good case mod, or a longer time to setup than an EC slot.

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