Datura

Please bare with me as I delve into why I think you may be having difficulties connecting. Keep in mind that I am not an electronics expert, and this is mostly me using my intuition based on heavy research I've done regarding PCIe, general knowledge of electronics and my advanced knowledge of computers in general. Using any kind of transition (ie. connectors) in a signal path results in signal loss and possible points for signal reflection if impedence values are not maintained which can cause problems with the signal. This is especially true with high frequency signals such as that found in PCIe (1.0 is a 2.5GHz signal, while 2.0 is 5GHz). These kidns of problems are worsened when using higher frequency signals. Typically in any standard system whether it be desktop or laptop, devices are connected to the system using one connector in the signal path (the mPCIe slot or an ExpressCard slot on a laptop, or the PCIe slot on a desktop). Any other connections in the signal's path are soldered and would not cause the same problems of signal loss and reflection, or if they do, they are exteremely minimal. While I know most would argue "copper is copper", that is not the case when you're dealing with high frequency data communications. Slight changes can cause the system to fail. This is why we have Cat5e and Cat6 cables which both can run 1Gbps networks, but untwist the wires too much or don't crimp the end right and it just will not work at the intended speed. With PCIe even the traces used on circuit boards have to be made to very tight specifications, including length, otherwise they will not be compliant and fail to perform as intended. Most eGPU setups that are running 2.0 spec have at most, 2 non-soldered connections in the path: One being the GPU -> PCIe slot (such as into a PE4L) and the other being where you connect your eGPU to the computer (VIA ExpressCard or mPCIe). People are able to establish PCIe connections with 3 or 4 connectors in the path (by using the old PE4L and PE4H that use the mHDMI connector) but they are limited to 1.0 speeds. This, to me, indicates that the enhanced frequency of 2.0 just can't handle these extra transitions and the signal is suffering. From the results of the eGPU experiences thread, I'm under the impression that any more than 2 connectors across a PCIe signal path cause the signal to become too degraded, regardless of the type of connector used to provide 2.0 link speeds. Most usage scenarios of PCIe have 1 connector being used in the signal path and in some extreme cases riser cards or cables are used (for desktops and servers even) so 2 connectors is probably still within spec for 2.0. Once you're getting into 3 different connectors, you're getting into a very specific usage scenario that likely would not have been accounted for as you're obviously trying to adapt something (which in the case of eGPUs, we are!) Using the KZ-B26 would be introducing 5 connectors in the signal path if you are using a PE4L with a soldered EC solution and 6 if you're using a PE4L with an HDMI connector in there. I believe this is why you're having trouble even establishing a connection as the signal may just be getting slaughtered. GPU <1> PCIe Slot -> PE4L -> EC <2> KZ-B26 (EC side) <3> RIBBON CABLE <4> KZ-B26 (mPCIE side) <5> mPCIe Slot -> SYSTEM The number of connectors you have could possibly be reduced by using something like this, but I believe you would still be limited to 1.0 speeds as it is still 3 connectors in the signal path: ExpressCard to mini-PCIe adapter GPU <1> PCIe Slot -> PE4L -> EC <2> EC Adapter Above <3> mPCIe Slot -> SYSTEM I am aware some people are using eGPUs with the Sonnet Echo Express EC->Thunderbolt adapter in the way creating a signal path that has more than 2 connectors, but Thunderbolt should be considered a separate scenario as the TB controllers are muxing and essentially retransmitting the data signals before reaching the TB connectors on either side before reaching the PCIe bus or the PCIe card. While most of this is only conjecture, it could easily be tested if someone that already has an eGPU setup working with 2.0 spec attaches an inexpensive and short 2.0 spec PCIe riser cable in the connection between their GPU and PE4L and see what happens. I guess even trying to use 2 PCIe riser cables on a desktop would work as well. If they drop to 1.0 link speed, it would confirm that having more than 2 connectors in the signal path does indeed cause too much degradation to the signal. If they remain at 2.0 link speed, then I'm wrong and I need to learn more about electronics and digital signalling. I am curious to know the answer myself!

This product would support at most x1.2Opt as it uses only one mPCIe slot. I have my doubts that it would actually support a 2.0 link due to the HDMI connector it uses which appears to be an issue with other similar products.

I'm not an expert nor do I have any experience with this actual hardware, but I've been scrounging the internet for about a week now trying to find information regarding M.2 with the types of "Keyed" slots that are available and the physical pinouts (haven't found this yet...) Based on the pictures provided, the type of M.2 slot required for the P11S card is either a Key-A or Key-E slot, not a Key-B slot as indicated in the description. An A-Key slot should be able to provide PCIe x2, however, a Key-E slot I believe is only supposed to provide PCIe x1. When a card is keyed for A and E that would make me assume that it would only be able to provide PCIe x1. Regardless of that, the P11F part of the link product provides 2 PCIe x1 slots, so no, this would not get you up to x2 2.0, but rather, allow you to hook up two PCIe x1 cards to the one M.2 connector.

3D Vision requires specific displays in order to display the 3D (typically they need to support 120Hz signalling). I do see there is a sepcific version of the Clevo p370sm (p370sm3 I believe it is) that has the 3D display built in. If you didn't get a laptop that has the required 3D screen then you're limited to having a desk with a 3D monitor or a 3D TV. When using 3D Vision, the GPU essentially has to render every frame twice at two different perspectives in order to provide the 3D effect meaning you need to have a decent GPU to push out at minimum 60FPS (30FPS per eye). In an eGPU environment you're not able to get the full processing power out of the video card you have attached, so using 3D Vision may not be the best idea with an eGPU, especially if you want to run at max settings too. Your scenario provided above, that being you want to game on a couch, could be accomodated by a desktop PC, a gaming laptop with a dedicated GPU or a laptop with an eGPU, depending on how you want to set up your gear. If you can provide details about what you want to do while mobile, I could make a better recommendation for you. For now, based on your desire to run max settings and use 3D vision and not have to be at a desk, my recommendation would be for you to stick with the 3D version of the Clevo for being able to 3D game anywhere without any additional requirements.

An x1 2.0 link provides 500MB/s (or 5GT/s) of bandwidth. Thunderbolt 1 is equivalent to an x2 2.0 link which provides 1GB/s (or 10GT/s). While Thunderbolt does provide additional bandwidth, you cannot run Optimus compression with it as Optimus requires an x1 link. The compression provided seems to exceed the performance of having an x2 link based on the benchmarks out there, even with people who have tried using Expresscard and mPCIe slots for their eGPUs. Thunderbolt 2 however is likely going to win the bandwidth war as it is essentially an x4 2.0 link, providing ~20GT/s in bandwidth. At this level of bandwidth most video cards are able to achieve roughly 80-95% of their performance based on the scaling analysis that has been performed (again links to this are present on the front page of the thread). The trouble with Thunderbolt right now is that all of the TB external PCIe solutions are horribly expensive ($300 and up) and it's not widely adopted on laptops, leaving your choices of laptops fairly limited. For me, I want a convertible laptop that will be replacing an aging desktop PC I have, and I have my eyes on the Sony Flip 13. It doesn't have Expresscard, Thunderbolt or mPCIe slots, but it has 2 of the NGFF M.2 connections inside. One of them could provide the same bandwidth (or more even!) than Thunderbolt 2 as it is an x4 slot and the M.2 standard is meant to support a 3.0 link, meaning a total bandwidth of ~32GT/s would be available if a 3.0 link is negotiable. I'm reluctant though as the laptop is going to be $1600 and NGFF M.2 slots are so new, no one has done any testing with them (I may have to be first!).

This all depends on what kind of setup you would be using. If you're able to negotiate an x1 2.0 connection using a nVidia card with optimus, it looks like most people with this configuration are getting ~60-75% or more of the performance of the card. Using higher end video cards typically still results in better performance over using lower end cards but there is some overlap. If you check out the first page of the thread, there is a leaderboard with results from benchmarking. If you're not able to use the optimus configuration or if you can only negotiate a 1.0 connection then your performance will degrade further. Just to give you a comparison: Standard Desktop PC (Closest I could find on the 3DMark site with similar processor speed): Intel Core i7-3770K Processor (3,500 MHz) GTX 780 3DMark06 Score: 33133 Laptop With EGPU (taken from the first page) i7-3720QM 2.6 (3,600 MHz) [email protected] (This is x1 2.0 with optimus configuration) 3DMark06 Score: 25860 Based on just the above, it shows a performance hit of about 28% (if my math is right, otherwise it's 22% @_@) by using the same video card in an eGPU setup with a similar speed processor, but still, that is one of the high-end cards right now and it's still performing very well. What does that 28% mean to you? If you're able to reach 60FPS with your current video card in a game right now hooked up to a 3.6GHz desktop processor and use that same video card in an eGPU setup on a laptop with a similar 3.6GHz processor, you'd be losing about 17FPS which means you would be down to 43FPS, which is still playable. Just to throw some wrenches into the gears, it really depends on the game itself how well it would perform with limited bandwidth available. Different amounts of data is transferred at different times based on how the game was programmed, on what is being displayed, and the settings you're using within the game. While we can estimate performance, there's no guarantee that your game will still run flawlessly all the time with slight loss to FPS - you could get stuttering and other strange effects. This is true. By using the internal display, you're consuming some of the bandwidth the video card would be using to transfer the video data back to the laptop for display. Right now you'll always get better performance using an external display that is connected to the video card.

Here's some information regarding the NGFF M.2 interface and its potential to be used for eGPUs most of which was provided from the below link. http://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=1-1773702-1NGFFQRG-EN&DocType=DS&DocLang=EN M.2 has differing keys for its slots. The type of key defines what type of connection the interface can provide and it also imposes a physical limitation on which NGFF cards you can actually plug into the slot itself. An image indicating the types of cards and their keys can be found at the below link. There are some cards that will fit into multiple slots (for example a B-M card could go into a B or M keyed slot). http://www.bjorn3d.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/NGFF.jpg The slots with key IDs of A, B, E or M would be the only ones of interest to us as they are the slots that could provide us with PCIe traffic. From what I gather, slots with the key of E may provide 1 lane of PCIe traffic while slots with keys of A or B could provide 2 lanes(PCIe x2) and a slot with key M could provide PCIe x4. NGFF has support for PCIe 3.0. An NGFF M slot with the 4 lanes of PCIe traffic, running at PCIe 3.0 would have almost the same amount of bandwidth available as an x16 1.0 link (~32GT/s) I'm assuming, much like mPCIe, which pins are actually connected to these slots may be up to the manufacturer to decide, for example, they may only connect the USB pins on a slot B connector. There are a few NGFF products that hwtools has that are of interest: P4SM2- M Key card to PCIe x4, indicated as compliant with PCIe 2.0 spec. P4SM2 (PCIe X4 to M.2 Adapter) While it says compliant with the PCIe 2.0 spec, it would be really awesome if it actually could run a 3.0 connection. L12S- A or E key slot extender to B key slot, PCIe x1 max L12S (M.2 Extender Board) This could possibly be used to convert an A key slot to a B key slot which appears to be more popular with SSDs. P11S-P11F- A or E key slot extender to 2 PCIe x1 slots. Note: I'm not sure how this is possible if E keyed slots only provide 1 lane of PCIe traffic. P11S-P11F M.2 (NGFF) to PCI-E Extender Board The description of the P11S-P11F seems to be copied and pasted from another product as it says the below which makes no sense looking at the images of the product: The P11S-P11F adapter is designed for desktop/Laptop PCs that convert 3G wireless M.2 Card to full/half mini card slot. You can insert your M.2 card (Socket 2 SSIC-base WWAN) such as GSM,HSPA(3.5G), GPS, LTE cards to this adapter then plug to USB port through USB cable.

Power supplies have inefficiencies. Different power supplies also have different efficiency ratings. A power supply with an 80% power efficiency rating that's powering something that requires 195W would also use up an additional 39W which is bled off as heat from the power supply. At 80% efficiency, 234W of power would be required to power something that requires 195W. That's getting closer to the 285W, but that's also assuming that the card is running at absolutely full-tilt of 195W, which it likely isn't. It could also be that because in the eGPU world you're only powering a video card, the PSU could actually be running less efficiently than it is actually rated at since these power ratings are completed while running a full system, not just the 12V lines that these eGPU setups require. The amount of load on a PSU also changes the amount of efficiency provided, typically anywhere between 40-60% load is where a PSU is most efficient and typically at 1% and 100% you're at the lowest efficiencies. It is important that people do not confuse what the power supply is able to provide and how much power is actually being drawn from the grid to provide that power. --- Just my two cents from a hardware guru who has lurked this forum for a long time, waiting for some decent convertibles that can be used with eGPUs.