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Y510p Ultrabay Graphics card

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4 minutes ago, WholeGrainOats said:

Would it be possible to instead design a thunderbolt ultrabay adapter?

It’s not possible & no need & have side effects.

To convert to an TB3, you will need a TB3 controller. Till now I have no idea how to get a controller working on regular PCIe.

Also the Ultrabay itself provides enough bandwidth(PCIe x8,and just the PCIe itself without any other mess) while TB3 is PCIe x4. You are just cutting your bandwidth in half regardless of TB protocol overhead.

The only reason for this is hot plugging the gpu. I know hot plugging PCIe devices is a thing but for now I have no idea how to implement it...

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«4 Core CPUs of Y500 and Y510p will gone soon in history;» - I have Y500 with i7 3840QM. This processor can reveal the potential of new video cards and also of the next two or three generations of video cards. processors starting from 2rd generation i7 are not a bottleneck in performance. it is a fact. Besides, no one here seeks to get a system of 4 videocards TITAN RTX. Most people want good gaming performance without buying a new laptop or PC

 

«buy PSU» - in my country PSU of 450 W cost 5$ (Russia). In addition, I think most have a power supply and not one.

«only GTX 10XX was tested» - RTX 20XX cards - these cards are not much better than GTX 10XX

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I actually want to ask but keep forgetting, while we are using egpu, does y510p cpu temp and ambient temp gets better? How much is your system temp?

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I also want to buy an adapter.

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Yeah, I'm down too for an adapter. Been following this forum since page 49.

 

Can't wait for someone to complete the final product.

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On 3/31/2019 at 3:34 AM, rusTORK said:

...This adapter is temporary solution of a problem. 4 Core CPUs of Y500 and Y510p will gone soon in history...

 

22 hours ago, Veter said:

«4 Core CPUs of Y500 and Y510p will gone soon in history;» - I have Y500 with i7 3840QM. This processor can reveal the potential of new video cards and also of the next two or three generations of video cards. processors starting from 2rd generation i7 are not a bottleneck in performance. it is a fact. Besides, no one here seeks to get a system of 4 videocards TITAN RTX. Most people want good gaming performance without buying a new laptop or PC.....

 

I kinda agree with @Veter. These CPU's (both y500 & y510p) are strong enough to play almost all games without sacrificing much performance provided the GPU is good enough to play most titles at high settings and higher resolutions. With higher FPS numbers there will be a bottleneck.

 

13 hours ago, jxfong2 said:

I actually want to ask but keep forgetting, while we are using egpu, does y510p cpu temp and ambient temp gets better? How much is your system temp?

 

CPU Temp gets slightly better if u disable dGPU and use eGPU since the heatpipe is shared between CPU and GPU. 

I have been using Liquid Metal for more than a year now. I always run my 4700MQ overclocked (36x) and temps are always under control unless you run heavy benchmarks like Prime95 with AVX. It's a very significant decrease in temps since i live in a much hotter region with ambient temps getting as high as 47 °C in summer. 

 

Right now with 1 window of chrome with 23 tabs open, 2nd window with 5 tabs open, temps are hovering around 37-38°C (18°C ambient temperature).

 

Vfz0bHZ.png

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Posted (edited)

Y500 (at least my) have got problem of CPU thermal throttle. I saw somewhere here, that it's because of EC (what's this?).

 

If GPU is 53°C (or more) then CPU got signal to lower it's core frequency from highest (3.2 GHz probably) to 2.4 GHz.

 

I have plans to install thermostat mod on CPU fan, but it will take time to get proper thermostat. But i hope it will help (when thermostat detect 50-55°C on GPU heatpipe it will break CPU fan pwm wire and it's start to spin on full speed).

 

P.S. I am currently use Graphite pad on both CPU and GPU as experimental. And i want to test Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut soon, that's why i can't use any paste or LM right now.

 

Another problem i faced, that sometime i have got cap of 60 FPS at Vally benchmark (with GTX 1080 Ti !).

Edited by rusTORK

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Posted (edited)

On my Y510p whenever I ran something like Prime95, the CPU would immediately heat up to 90 degrees C (very briefly, but you could see a maximum value captured in e.g. HWMonitor), and then cut the turbo completely, settling at 2.4GHz. Don't remember GPU load affecting the CPU in any way as long as temperatures were normal.

 

Right after I noticed this and read that it's impossible to control fans directly in any way on this machine (other than repeatedly calling the dust cleaning option, which some people have actually written scripts for) I had this idea to build a custom fan controller. I imagined it as a small package microcontroller (e.g. Atmel ATtiny85v), which would be installed between the fan and the motherboard by cutting the PWM wire. The chip would read motherboard-supplied PWM duty cycle and map it using a lookup table into a custom fan profile, generating appropriate PWM for the fan. Never actually gotten to implementing this, though.

 

As for thermal interfaces, I tried Arctic MX-4, but it doesn't seem to help much. There appears to be a design flaw with coldpads not being pushed to the chips with enough force, especially on the ultrabay GPU. I can very well see how liquid metal with its vastly superior thermal conductivity would make a big difference. Also, I've read about people getting good temperatures by installing thin copper shims from Aliexpress between the heatsink and the chips.

 

Speaking of 60fps cap, could it be just VSync?

Edited by High_Voltage

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1 hour ago, rusTORK said:

Y500 (at least my) have got problem of CPU thermal throttle. I saw somewhere here, that it's because of EC (what's this?)....

 

Cooling system is really pathetic in lenovo ideapad series. You simply can't do anything to get rid of throttling. Thermal throttling can be reduced though.

 

Thermal throttle is inevitable due to:

1. Bad stock thermal paste

2. Heatsink not being flat on the die

3. GPU and CPU heatsink combined.

4. No VRM cooling

 

First and second can be solved using good quality highly conductive thermal paste and re-aligning heat sink. Heat sink can be adjusted using washer mod, bending it slightly (careful here) and lapping. I did all the above and it's been more than a year since i've opened up my laptop's heatsink and temps are same as i was getting back then.

 

Third issue however cannot be solved so easily. It'll require custom made heat sink. The contact between GPU die and heatsink is also horrible. Since i am now using eGPU, i don't have to worry about it.

 

Those idiots placed VRM directly below the heasink. Right now you cannot increase the TDP but even if you are able to do it, VRM throttling will start. There's no way to cool VRM's in the current design.

 

There's are other ways the CPU can throttle ofcourse. Like, EDP current limit. It cannot be changed and one reason why upgrading CPU won't help.

 

1 hour ago, rusTORK said:

...If GPU is 53°C (or more) then CPU got signal to lower it's core frequency from highest (3.2 GHz probably) to 2.4 GHz...

 

I have read about it but never encountered it. Are you using ThrottleStop? If not then try it. It's a godsent program to help with a lot of throttling woes. 

 

1 hour ago, rusTORK said:

...I have plans to install thermostat mod on CPU fan, but it will take time to get proper thermostat. But i hope it will help (when thermostat detect 50-55°C on GPU heatpipe it will break CPU fan pwm wire and it's start to spin on full speed)....

 

That could help. Make sure you remove the grill mesh dust filter on the bottom of the laptop for more fan efficiency.

I personally use ideafan. I only run it when gaming, other times the laptop is silent anyway. I'd love to mod a switch to run the fan at full speed but dont get much time for that.

 

1 hour ago, rusTORK said:

...P.S. I am currently use Graphite pad on both CPU and GPU as experimental..

 

From what i heard it doesn't do a very good job. I'd rather suggest Conductonaut (as i'm using it) but it's very risky if not done properly.

 

1 hour ago, rusTORK said:

..Another problem i faced, that sometime i have got cap of 60 FPS at Vally benchmark (with GTX 1080 Ti !).

 

That's weird. Have you tinkered with any nvidia control panel settings?

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1 hour ago, rusTORK said:

Y500 (at least my) have got problem of CPU thermal throttle. I saw somewhere here, that it's because of EC (what's this?).

 

If GPU is 53°C (or more) then CPU got signal to lower it's core frequency from highest (3.2 GHz probably) to 2.4 GHz.

 

I have plans to install thermostat mod on CPU fan, but it will take time to get proper thermostat. But i hope it will help (when thermostat detect 50-55°C on GPU heatpipe it will break CPU fan pwm wire and it's start to spin on full speed).

 

P.S. I am currently use Graphite pad on both CPU and GPU as experimental. And i want to test Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut soon, that's why i can't use any paste or LM right now.

 

Another problem i faced, that sometime i have got cap of 60 FPS at Vally benchmark (with GTX 1080 Ti !).


Please share the results after testing Grizzly Carbonaut. My results for use of 2 LM: ЖМ-6 and Coollaboratory liquid pro: at first, everything very COOL, but after 6 months the temperature has become higher than cheap thermal grease. I disassembled the laptop: the metal crystallized on the CPU, the heel of the copper radiator received two small holes and LM penetrated into the entire top layer of copper. Perhaps in the composition of copper radiators there is some kind of impurity, due to which the liquid metal crystallizes.
There is opinion: nickel radiator surface and cpu ceramic surfaces are suitable for LM. But in my Y500 I have  copper radiator(

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4 minutes ago, Veter said:


Please share the results after testing Grizzly Carbonaut. My results for use of 2 LM: ЖМ-6 and Coollaboratory liquid pro: at first, everything very COOL, but after 6 months the temperature has become higher than cheap thermal grease. I disassembled the laptop: the metal crystallized on the CPU, the heel of the copper radiator received two small holes and LM penetrated into the entire top layer of copper. Perhaps in the composition of copper radiators there is some kind of impurity, due to which the liquid metal crystallizes.
There is opinion: nickel radiator surface and cpu ceramic surfaces are suitable for LM. But in my Y500 I have  copper radiator(

 

The reason why you saw crystallization is due to gaps between heatsink and cpu die which allowed air to go into the system. As long as there's no gap (airtight fitting), LM will never dry out.

The heatsink needs to be fully flat against the die with even pressure to use LM otherwise everything can go wrong.

 

Copper heatsinks are good when it comes to LM. LM penetrates into copper surface but it doesn't in any way hamper the heat conduction. It's more like a stain that won't go away but doesn't affect performance. Aluminium heat sinks on the other hand should never be used with LM.

 

You are getting bad results with LM like most people simply because of bad application. If applied correctly you don't ever have to worry about it. I've thrown my laptop around, carry it almost everyday on a motorbike, all the things you can imagine would make LM leak but it never happened to me.

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4 minutes ago, intruder said:

 

The reason why you saw crystallization is due to gaps between heatsink and cpu die which allowed air to go into the system. As long as there's no gap (airtight fitting), LM will never dry out.

The heatsink needs to be fully flat against the die with even pressure to use LM otherwise everything can go wrong.

 

Copper heatsinks are good when it comes to LM. LM penetrates into copper surface but it doesn't in any way hamper the heat conduction. It's more like a stain that won't go away but doesn't affect performance. Aluminium heat sinks on the other hand should never be used with LM.

 

You are getting bad results with LM like most people simply because of bad application. If applied correctly you don't ever have to worry about it. I've thrown my laptop around, carry it almost everyday on a motorbike, all the things you can imagine would make LM leak but it never happened to me.

"As long as there's no gap" - And how did you do it?

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1 minute ago, Veter said:

"As long as there's no gap" - And how did you do it?

 

Already posted above:

 

51 minutes ago, intruder said:

....Thermal throttle is inevitable due to:

1. Bad stock thermal paste

2. Heatsink not being flat on the die

3. GPU and CPU heatsink combined.

4. No VRM cooling

 

First and second can be solved using good quality highly conductive thermal paste and re-aligning heat sink. Heat sink can be adjusted using washer mod, bending it slightly (careful here) and lapping. I did all the above and it's been more than a year since i've opened up my laptop's heatsink and temps are same as i was getting back then...

 

Image if you're curious:

 

rnx6sTs.jpg

 

As you can see i was very careful not letting LM touch the surrounding aluminium heat sink. This was the first time i applied LM.

 

r1ru1aL.jpg

 

^ This is after a month of use. The grey area you see is LM penetrating copper which is only at the surface and can be sanded off. The way i did it is applied LM first time, used it for a month, reopened heat sink assembly, sanded off copper shim (the pic above) and applied LM again. LM won't continuously invade copper forever, like i said it only happens at the surface (a couple microns). 

 

I was pretty careful to prevent any leaks just in case:

 

blodIj2.jpg

 

I did not mean to be offensive but people tend to treat LM like any other thermal paste and ended up killing the motherboard and then say it doesn't work and not worth it. 

 

Anyway, if you're or any other individual reading this want to try out Liquid Metal, I'd say do as much research as you can, ask questions so people with experience can help. Otherwise stay away from it.

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Im running the 4700mq at 4.1ghz w/ LM. I regret not doing this from the start years ago. Simple put the cpu is running to its limits without throttling or over heating. In fact it stays relatively cool, mid 60s during gaming and mid 80s when being stressed out on all cores while pulling around 45 to 54w.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Tesla said:

Im running the 4700mq at 4.1ghz w/ LM. I regret not doing this from the start years ago. Simple put the cpu is running to its limits without throttling or over heating. In fact it stays relatively cool, mid 60s during gaming and mid 80s when being stressed out on all cores while pulling around 45 to 54w.

 

I vaguely remember doing that but i stopped as our systems are not meant to handle that kind of speed since it draws too much power. You can't run continuously at higher TDP (54-57W) since it creates issues. I've had a lot of issues in the past because of this. One reason i remember is that the power connector on the motherboard was burned (the female end of the power cable, no damage to the pins on motherboard though, lucky i guess). I don't have any other personal laptop and that's why i try not to do anything that might damage it.

 

So yeah even without thermal throttling, there's nothing to be done to increase the performance in the long run. It's a design flaw.

 

Also, i remember you doing research for replacing the display panel on your y510p. Have you found anything on that?

 

EDIT: Just now remembered that microcode bug.

Edited by intruder

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actually it depends on your chip, mine is doing 3.9 4c, 4.1 on 2 cores with increasing the voltage offset by +10mV only. and 4.1 on all cores with +46mV. which is not a lot. now if i go to 4.2 or 4.3 it would require +200mV which is insane.

However with those speeds and my normal use of PC everything feels snappier. and it doesnt consume that much more power. and the bios does power throttle the chip back to 3.4 once power draw exceeds 55W-57W which is something you will never hit with gaming+multitasking. so i guess its not all bad if u know what you're doing and +600mhz does make a difference on an old chip.

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2 minutes ago, Tesla said:

actually it depends on your chip, mine is doing 3.9 4c, 4.1 on 2 cores with increasing the voltage offset by +10mV only. and 4.1 on all cores with +46mV. which is not a lot. now if i go to 4.2 or 4.3 it would require +200mV which is insane.

However with those speeds and my normal use of PC everything feels snappier. and it doesnt consume that much more power. and the bios does power throttle the chip back to 3.4 once power draw exceeds 55W-57W which is something you will never hit with gaming+multitasking. so i guess its not all bad if u know what you're doing and +600mhz does make a difference on an old chip.

 

Ok now i'm intrigued. Can you tell me which microcode version you used? Did you edit BIOS to add the buggy microcode?

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Version 00, and yeah I did edit stock bios image v2.07 and did a zero fill on the microcode section, I then applied slv7 on the top of modded bios just coz I wanted to replace the dreadful wifi adapter.

and last but not least you have to delete the .dll microcode file from your system32 and do couple of restarts. it took me like 7 restarts or so before I was able to edit the clocks in throttlestop on win 10 v1809.

 

Please note that when you edit the hex values, the microcode length for 2.07 is i believe was 40 (unlike what is mentioned in the original guide). Also you need to replace the removed part with 0s.

 

I would upload the final modded bios image but that would be against the forum rules. So lets move it to PMs *wink wink*

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On 3/30/2019 at 5:43 PM, High_Voltage said:

@Drozof You can only use M.2 for PCIe if the socket supports NVMe. This laptop supports M.2 SATA only, therefore your only option other than using the adapter would be plugging a PCIe x1 cable instead of the wireless card.

 

Oh man that sucks, thanks anyway

 

BTW are there any workarounds on the ultrabay to having to buy an ultrabay socket part? can I make like a PCB that slots in like a card then solder the cables to it?

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, High_Voltage said:

Don't remember GPU load affecting the CPU in any way as long as temperatures were normal.

 

I played a bit in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. with runned HWiNFO64 sensors monitoring at background. Here is results:

53.thumb.jpg.651ea365e301c4c0009180c870a0d529.jpg

Right after GPU cool down to 53°C - CPU frequency go up. At the same time CPU temp was lower then 60 before that, but only after GPU cool down - frequency is recovered.

22 hours ago, High_Voltage said:

There appears to be a design flaw with coldpads not being pushed to the chips with enough force, especially on the ultrabay GPU.

I have got shimming mod on my Y500. It's good, easy, cheap. But i didn't tested it YET with proper TIM (Graphite isn't proper, just interesting).

 

Here is results with Graphite (i didn't planned to share it's here, but just in case): Few games recorded with overlay. GPU was used GT 650M with shadowplay enabled.

 

Temps are high, but "in spec".

22 hours ago, High_Voltage said:

Speaking of 60fps cap, could it be just VSync?

I think, that something may be wrong with Valley itself, since in Heaven i have got proper (+\-) results. I will try to re-install it. I disabled in NVIDIA Drivers VSync, also i disabled it in Valley. Card in Maximum performance mode and CPU in maximum performance mode.

 

22 hours ago, intruder said:

Third issue however cannot be solved so easily.

I thought about useing Kapton Tape to eliminate contact of GPU heatpipe of CPU heatpipe and stop transfer heat in that direction. But it's only an idea. Another option is useing Panasonic NASBIS, but it's expensive (same as their GraphiteTIM).

 

22 hours ago, intruder said:

There's no way to cool VRM's in the current design.

My other idea was just convert laptop to desktop. Remove motherboard and transfer it in custom case. Install desktop CPU cooler and connect Ultrabay adapter. Everything was fine untill i founded problem - motherboard is upside down. CPU cooler look at  bottom, GPU at top - need a riser cable. Ultrabay port => Ultrabay Adapter => Riser cable => GPU. Even as idea it's look bad. =)

 

22 hours ago, intruder said:

I have read about it but never encountered it. Are you using ThrottleStop? If not then try it.

I have got it installed. I used it with Prime95 for GraphiteTIM tests. Working good with CPU frequency, didn't tesed it with GPU. Still, this is software solution, but i also want hardware - that's why i looking for thermostat mod.

 

22 hours ago, intruder said:

From what i heard it doesn't do a very good job.

Yeah, good heat transfer in X-Y (400w/m*K) direction, bad in Z (28W/m*K). Main problem - need more pressure. And it's main problem of Y500 - what a shame! :)

Edited by rusTORK

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21 hours ago, intruder said:

Heat sink can be adjusted using washer mod, bending it slightly (careful here) and lapping.

This is called accuracy. I did everything neatly. Metal only concerned copper and processor. The radiator was attached to the processor over the entire area. And over the whole area there were crystals.
I thought you could tell me about the method of isolating metal from air. Your way in NO way isolates metal from air. Sooner or later it crystallizes. To be honest, you are the first living person who has not encountered the problem of crystallization. 

 

22 hours ago, intruder said:

LM will never dry out

It can't dry out )) this is metal. it reacts with copper (the gray mark is the reaction). that is, one of the LM components is absorbed into copper (LM is a mixture of several metals) and the rest of the substance begins to change its properties. including crystallization. heating in this case speeds up the process.
On my working laptop (not Y500) LM worked for more than 18 months, because I do not play on it and do not do overclocking. Thus, the laptop worked most of the time with medium or low temperatures. 
What is your processor model

 

22 hours ago, intruder said:

LM won't continuously invade copper forever

I am not interested in copper. The radiator works well with grinding and without grinding. I speak only about the fact that LM is an unfinished product. 

 

22 hours ago, intruder said:

I did not mean to be offensive

You shared your experience. I shared mine. You may consider yourself smart. It does not affect anything

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On 4/1/2019 at 10:43 PM, Veter said:


Please share the results after testing Grizzly Carbonaut.

No problems, but i don't know when i get it. It's new product, but interesting.

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8 hours ago, rusTORK said:

I thought about useing Kapton Tape to eliminate contact of GPU heatpipe of CPU heatpipe and stop transfer heat in that direction. But it's only an idea. Another option is useing Panasonic NASBIS, but it's expensive (same as their GraphiteTIM).

 

This is a good point as well. Originally, the CPU and GPU heatpipes run isolated and only meet at the radiator of the heatsink. If you are running an eGPU setup, your dGPU is idling, therefore you can harness heat transfer capacity of the second heatpipe to reduce CPU temperatures.

 

I've definitely seen it done somewhere (maybe even on this forum). The guy has smudged thermal paste between the two heatpipes, allowing the second one to participate in heat extraction from the CPU, and reported a very significant decrease in CPU temps. I would imagine that this idea can be improved on by using better thermal compounds, such as thermally-conductive epoxy (very reliable but brittle and not very high thermal conductivity) or thermally-conductive silicone glue (the white rubbery stuff you find inside electronics). The ultimate solution would be to try soldering them together with some low melting point solder, like indium (157°C) or Rose's alloy (94°C).

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4 hours ago, High_Voltage said:

If you are running an eGPU setup, your dGPU is idling

It's not always true. I run few tests with Valley Benchmark: dGPU disabled (via Device Manager) and dGPU enabled on both: internal screen and eDisplay (HDMI emulator) by dragging Valley window on that screen (for more data i even tested PCI-E Gen1 and Gen2 by switching them for PCI-E root complex). Results with dGPU enabled was higher, even if it's not possible to run in SLI with GTX 1080 Ti. Maybe because some pixels of window was on another (dGPU) screen? Maybe because picture from eGPU go throught dGPu on Internal display. I have no idea, but i saw in Valley monitor, that dGPU is working.

 

I will run last test today and re-install Valley.

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